Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2009

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Better late than never, I guess.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Monsieur Dufour.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. McMillan, I would like to follow up on a topic broached by my colleague Mr. Easter. If I'm not mistaken, federal government investments in infrastructure...The government, as we know, is boasting about having dramatically increased available funding for post-secondary institutions across Canada to assist infrastructures. This is somewhat the same program principle. You say that this increased level of investment has had a positive impact, specifically that is had resulted in an increase in student enrolment. However, you still have to contend with a shortfall of nearly $500 million.

You talk about the return on our investment. If you were to receive the necessary funding, how many more students could enrol in a post-secondary institution?

[Dr. Brian McMillan]

You're right, there has been some positive impact with regard to the KIP funding, but one of the things KIP didn't include was capital equipment. We're renovating the facilities, but we don't have the resources to buy some of the lab equipment, so that's a bit of a shortage.

With regard to the $500 million, that is a national figure. I just presented to you the number of students on wait lists in Atlantic Canada. I don't have the national number at my fingertips, but we realize that this is an anomaly right now across the country. I know, for instance, that we're going to be adding another 350 students with the recent infrastructure increase, but we still have significant wait lists.

The other thing we're concerned about is those people who are currently employed, and I realize that the federal government does now provide funding through the labour management agreement for persons who are employed. But once again, to keep pace with the changing technologies and what's happening in the workforce, many of these companies, in order to stay competitive, are going to have to upscale.

When you look at the numbers--getting back to Mr. Easter's comment about how we are stacking up--in China alone, just on a population base, if you take the top 20% of their brightest and youngest, their potential would rival our total Canadian population. So in this country we can't afford not to have everyone with a post-secondary credential;we just can't, because if we don't, they will become dependent on the system and withdraw funds as opposed to providing something back.

We do face labour force shortages. It's not just having the skills, but will we have a workforce large enough to compete? I know we're doing things like bringing newcomers to help offset that, but we have a large percentage of individuals right now who are underemployed, and with the proper support and training.... And that's the nice thing about a college experience; it could be nine months, it could be up to two years, but many of them are going out into construction jobs where there's a need and a shortage, and in some of the other sectors that have been identified. Health care is another good example. Just in this province, we're adding another cohort of paramedics because there's a shortage of health care individuals.

We'll increase the numbers based on revenues that we have, and that's just basically how we do it. So the LMDA, and the LMA recently, in the federal government's commitment to add funding for skills, have been very helpful. I can think of five programs we've added this year that we wouldn't have added without that funding, but there's still more demand, and especially in rural areas where people can't afford to travel and they have home care challenges. I mentioned some of the underrepresented. These folks want to get educated. They do want to work.

Those are some of my thoughts.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have enough money to renovate buildings, but not enough money to pay teachers and buy the proper supplies.

[Dr. Brian McMillan]

That's part of it, that's correct.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Théberge, you talked about community radio stations. You made an interesting comment, namely that every radio station in Canada needs about $30,000 a year in stable funding. I have a few questions for you.

First of all, how did you arrive at that figure? How many radio stations are there in Canada and in you estimation, how much would it cost to provide them with the funding you suggested?

[Martin Théberge]

I'll start by answering your second question. There are a total of 140 community radio stations, both Francophone and Anglophone, and that figure includes campus radio stations. Therefore, the proposed initiative would cost $4.2 million annually.

As for your first question, namely how we arrived at this $30,000 figure, I concur with the position not only of my Arc du Canada colleagues and its English counterpart, the NCRA, but also of my Quebec colleagues at ARC. We felt that this level of funding would be sufficient to hire a permanent employee, and pay for a computer as well as telephone and Internet services. It truly represents the basics. Some funding is made available for infrastructure. Some radio stations continue to operate today with nothing more than computers. Purchasing a computer opens the door to streaming music. That works for certain communities. It's already a good starting point, but it doesn't cover the salary of an employee who tries to generate revenues, forge partnerships with the community, and so forth. We felt that a base amount of $30,000 would be enough to allow the station to hire an employee and expand its operations.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I think just about every organization is grappling with the same problem. The government is investing heavily in infrastructures, but nothing whatsoever in human resources and...

[Martin Théberge]

Another problem is that often, funding is allocated for projects. For example, funding can be obtained from Heritage Canada, or from the Community Radio Fund of Canada, but no money is available to help cover a radio station's basic operating costs. I can't even think about submitting a project proposal if I don't have any employees to run the station.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll go to Mr. Allen, please.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I welcome everybody here today.

Chief Augustine, it's good to see you again.

I have a question for Mr. McMillan and the community colleges. In New Brunswick, of course, many years ago, we took the trades out of the schools, which we're paying dearly for at this point in time.

You talked about this $500 million in infrastructure. A couple of things concern me.

Number one, can every community college be all things to all people? They obviously cannot.

Second, with this being a provincial jurisdiction--and presumably, we'll say, a knowledge infrastructure program was expanded going forward--do you see that schools, at least in New Brunswick, are starting to taking up the trades again, such that you would see some levelling out of that investment for infrastructure as time goes by?

[Dr. Brian McMillan]

Thank you for your questions.

First of all, you're right. I think it was 15 or 20 years ago that trades were taken out of the high schools. IT was brought in during the IT bubble, and now that has dissipated. The $500 million we're asking for is for infrastructure, but a big part of it is capital equipment as well. I think it's important to see that as an element of it.

With ongoing funding, we can use and have used industry as training sites to offset some infrastructure costs. Colleges are trying to find some creative ways to deal with the infrastructure costs. The big issue is capital equipment, because for graduates to go out there and be gainfully employed, they do need to be working on the most recent technologies.

On the question about how colleges can't be all things to all people, I think it's a really, really good point. That's why, through our regional consortium, we help each other out. With health training programs, there is a regional group that takes a look at adding or not adding courses and also at how we keep a balance so that we are providing enough graduates to respond to the labour force demands.

Also, at our college, and I'm sure at others as well, every year we review the numbers of students who apply and the numbers of students who get employed. Based on that, we either increase or decrease our enrolment numbers. It's another way of making sure we're being responsive.

What is happening in Atlantic Canada through the energy sector and also in some of the IT sectors--health IT programs are a growth industry here, as is video game design--is that we're being asked to put together training to support the local industry, which is great. The issue is, though, what do you take out of the basket?

The problem is that as soon as we go to take out a program, I can tell you that we hear from that industry, which asks us why we're cutting it back. So what we try to do is ratchet down the numbers, still support it, and say that we don't need to be graduating 30 students a year if our employment records show that only 35.... Well, I shouldn't say that, because I don't think we have any programs under 60% uptake, but if the numbers are down, then we decrease the programs.

Just like a business, we're constantly taking a look at supply and demand and what the numbers need to be, but there's a greater expectation all the time for training. As you look at the global economy, I think you can see that many countries realize that the key to success is to invest in training and have a well-educated, skilled workforce.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Chief Augustine, you talked about the tools of governance being the important issue. You talked about the tax regime that you have with the Province of New Brunswick. What other financial aspects of these tools of governance do you see as applicable and what parts of those affect the federal government in revenues?

[Chief Noah Augustine]

The most important one would be lands, addition to reserves. Under the federal policy of addition to reserves under the Department of Indian Affairs, some first nations, such as Metepenagiag, are fortunate to have land claim opportunities. A year and half ago, we resolved a claim for 300 acres, and we have a legal obligation on behalf of Canada to convert new lands, up to 300 acres, to an ATR, an addition to reserve.

We're currently negotiating a 3,000-acre claim. Once we purchase those lands and convert that to ATR, then the tax regime can take a place. First nations are now moving into that taxation base and it's critical. Like any other government, you need a tax base. It's access to lands, but a lot of first nations in the Atlantic region don't have access to those lands, and if they purchase lands and hold them in fee simple, then they have to engage that ATR process. But there's no legal obligation on behalf of Canada to convert those lands.

It's access to lands that's critical in terms of the economic development.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have two minutes, Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Théberge, I read that there were no stations to broadcast programming in New Brunswick. We have a Francophone radio station at the Centre communautaire Sainte-Anne. It is the result of a partnership between the community and the school, which receives provincial and federal government grants. Could you possibly forge a partnership with the region's schools?

[Martin Théberge]

Let me just clarify that ARCA, the Association des radios communautaires en Atlantique, the regional body for the Atlantic region within ARC du Canada, does not include New Brunswick. This province has a sufficient number of community radio stations to have its own regional board, the ARCANB. New Brunswick has its very own association.

Partnerships are occasionally forged between schools and communities, that is between the radio station and the region's community agency. For example, a partnership such as this has been forged on Isle Madame in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

However, the situation is completely different at this time for the Centre communautaire Sainte-Anne in New Brunswick. The level of funding is much lower in the case of these agreements between the schools and the community because the government owns the building. The community organization is allowed to use the premises free of charge and space is very limited. There is no dedicated space for a community radio station. At the Chéticamp station, for instance, space is at a premium. The same is true in Halifax. On Isle Madame, no such agreement with a school has been forged. However, arrangements have been made with a community agency. It isn't a case of the station occupying space free of charge in a government building.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Merci.

We'll go to Ms. Leslie, please.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, all of you, to the pre-budget consultations; bienvenue and pjilsa’si.

My name is Megan Leslie. I'm the member of Parliament for Halifax.

I have a couple of questions. The first is for the Native Council of Prince Edward Island. It may be a quick answer.

With over half of Canada's first nations people living in urban centres, friendship centres can provide effective and culturally appropriate services and programs. Would you agree with me that friendship centre funding is a pretty simple and small investment with a pretty big impact?

[Chief Jamie Gallant]

I believe it can be.

There is a difference between friendship centres and organizations such as ours. We're not considered a friendship centre in terms of the friendship centre umbrella. I think they provide, definitely, a valuable service in terms of culture and awareness and education, those type of things, but that's not a one-stop shop.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

It's not the only answer.