Evidence of meeting #5 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was municipalities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean Perrault  President, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Michael Atkinson  President, Canadian Construction Association
Jeff Morrison  President and Chief Operating Officer, Association of Canadian Engineering Companies

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

This is the fifth meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance in the second session of the 40th Parliament.

This morning we have the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on the financial priorities of the federal government.

We have two sessions here today. From 9 to 10 we have the Honourable John Baird.

Welcome, Minister. I believe you have three officials with you, who I will ask you to introduce in your opening presentation.

Minister, I know there are a lot of questions from members across the country about infrastructure. It's obviously a big issue with respect to the budget implementation act, which is being discussed in the House presently. So we'll ask you to make an opening statement of up to 10 minutes long, and then we'll go immediately to questions from members for about 45 to 50 minutes.

You may begin at any time. Welcome to the committee.

9 a.m.

Ottawa West—Nepean Ontario

Conservative

John Baird ConservativeMinister of Transport

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's a great pleasure for me to be here.

I was particularly excited to be asked to come before the finance committee for two big reasons: one, because I've never appeared before committee with your able chairmanship; and two, I have great admiration and respect, and even a bit of affection, for the finance critic of the official opposition. When I was asked to come here, I just thought what a great opportunity it would be for him to ask me questions and to have an exchange with him. As I'm not the finance minister, I don't have that luxury in the House of Commons. I have great respect for him, and I'm looking forward to his able questions and his wise helmsmanship of the finance file for the official opposition.

So thank you for being here, Mr. McCallum.

I have prepared a speech, but I thought I might just speak off the cuff about infrastructure spending.

Obviously we're facing some global economic uncertainty, global economic challenges. Canada is not immune to that. All the G20 leaders have agreed there is a need for major stimulus. We started that in 2008 with significant tax reductions. We started that with significant infrastructure investments, but we realize we have to build on that. We think it is incredibly important to push infrastructure projects. We believe they are not the whole answer, but they could be an important shot in the arm for the Canadian economy. That's why we're moving aggressively on infrastructure spending.

The one thing that successive governments have established is that, in a federation like Canada, you have to work together with provincial and territorial governments, and you have to work together with municipalities across the country. These issues are never easy. They're never fast.

The previous government and our government have set up programs and often taken a year or even three years—in the case of the previous government's infrastructure program announced in 2003—to negotiate framework agreements with every province and then to get projects going. Particularly, major projects don't turn on a dime. We're moving forward aggressively, for example, as a partner with the Spadina subway extension in Toronto, and the City of Toronto—the TTC—doesn't have the luxury of being able to have significant amounts of engineering work and design and environmental assessments all done before federal funding kicks in, because they simply don't have the financial flexibility to do that.

We have to deal with a lot of regulatory, legislative, and process issues. When the Prime Minister asked me to take on this position, one of the mandates he gave me was to speed up the process, because I don't think any of us—any provincial or territorial or municipal government—is satisfied with the speed with which infrastructure programs have worked, even over the last 25 years.

We are making record investments in infrastructure. One of the principal ways we do that is by providing a gas tax transfer directly to municipalities. We made that permanent in last year's budget, and those cheques are sent out twice annually to municipalities across the country, sometimes through the provincial government and sometimes through municipal associations, depending upon where you are in the country. That's very important, as is the GST rebate, which is another source of financial support that municipalities have to be able to count on in the long term. That is dealt with by the Department of National Revenue.

Those two constitute the majority of infrastructure spending. When it comes to the individual framework agreements we have with provinces, they have taken too long. They are too slow. They are too bureaucratic. And when the Prime Minister gave me these responsibilities he asked me not just to work with my officials but to speak to every single province, every single territory, and municipal leaders from across the country. We did that in December and concluded a final few in January.

I went out to every single provincial and territorial government and asked what the barriers were to things happening on infrastructure. We listened and we learned. We looked at the work that had been done by successive committees in the House of Commons. We got a lot of advice from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. We got it from the Association of Municipalities of Ontario. In these infrastructure meetings around the country we invited municipal leaders to participate, and I think the process was stronger because of that.

We've come forward with a five-point action plan, which is the federal response to what we could do to speed these projects up. We're going to be proposing amendments to the Navigable Waters Protection Act. Everywhere we went there was virtual unanimity that we had to tackle this problem. One premier called it the biggest job-killer in his province, and we agree. We got unanimous consensus from all of the provincial and territorial leaders to make changes. Those are contained in the budget bill. They're in the budget bill because they're an important part of our national economic plan, and we believe we need to move expeditiously on it.

We looked also at the issue of regulatory reform. Every single province and territory that we spoke with asked, do we need one, two, three, four different types of environmental assessments? We need to protect the environment and we do that in different ways.

I was interested to learn that under the infrastructure program our government inherited, the overwhelming number today—before any changes are made—of environmental assessments preclude requiring any federal environmental assessment to take place. We'll give $20-odd billion for the transfers in the gas tax for infrastructure, and then the GST rebate, and there's not a single requirement whatsoever for any federal environmental assessment to take place in those direct transfers; neither is there in the base funding of our federal infrastructure program, which gives a base to every province, however big or small, to deal with.

We talked to all the premiers. I talked to premiers who are particularly well respected for their role on the environment: Gary Doer, Gordon Campbell, and Dalton McGuinty particularly. We said, could we not have one environmental assessment that could be done? The challenge is that if there is an infrastructure project all ready to go—“shovel-ready” is the common word—it can't go forward. It can't go forward because they don't have money, and the minute the federal government gives them one dollar, in today's regime, directly it triggers a full federal environmental assessment. That could delay the project for 18 months or two years, despite the fact that it's had a full environmental assessment at another level of government.

So we're making changes under existing legislative authorities for the next two years to fast-track these projects. I think that's a result of what we heard in our consultations. It's also an acknowledgement of the significant economic challenges we're facing.

We're also making changes to try to streamline consideration of issues under the Fisheries Act with my colleague the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. We're looking at what we can do to have more direct consultations with first nations. If you're going to build a 300-kilometre highway, obviously that's a significant issue; if you're simply repaving a road at a $25,000 cost, that's a very different issue.

Finally, we're looking at what we can do to streamline the bureaucratic rule-making and red tape within government. Wayne Wouters, the Secretary of the Treasury Board, was reported to have given a speech recently in which he talked about the web of rules that has been built up by successive governments. Every time, under a Conservative or a Liberal government, in this country that there was a scandal, there were more and more rules placed on these projects, and they have almost strait-jacketed us.

None of the ones that we put forward in the Federal Accountability Act dealt with these, but when I was the President of the Treasury Board I appointed Frances Lankin, now the Honourable Frances Lankin, to head up a blue-ribbon task force on the web of rules and what we could do concerning grants and contributions, particularly in non-profit agencies, to make sure that we had important accountability measures in place but that we didn't measure accountability by the tonnage of paper used annually. They came forward with some significant positive recommendations for us, and we're looking at what we can do to reduce some of that red tape web of rules at Infrastructure Canada.

We're committed to doing our part to make things happen. Things have not happened fast enough. There is often a significant delay from the time we announce the project until the shovel goes in.

Finally, I'd highlight that one of the good financial administration practices brought in by the previous government, of which Mr. McCallum was a member, was that we have very tight money management policies. We don't give a $2 billion cheque out to someone if they're not ready to start putting a shovel in the ground.

For example, we're very proud to be supporters of the Spadina subway extension at Infrastructure Canada. We announced it two years ago. We didn't give them all the money up front because they weren't spending it. They're going to be putting the shovel in the ground shortly.

And we've come forward with a new policy to guarantee to municipalities and provinces that we'll pay invoices within 30 days. If there are specific requests for advance payments that will allow the project to go forward, we will entertain those and respond as expeditiously as possible.

That gives you a bit of an outline of where I see things standing, Mr. Chair. I particularly look forward to the well-respected questions from my colleague the member for Markham—Unionville.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Minister Baird.

Despite your lavish praise and respect for Mr. McCallum, we'll be starting with Mr. Kennedy.

9:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Kennedy, you have seven minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

You are significantly downgraded in your level of critic, but you know that from your prior provincial experience and from a few days ago.

I'd like to pick up from where we went in the transport, infrastructure and communities committee, because I'm sure, Mr. Minister, you didn't have a fulsome response then in terms of the time we had available.

A few days ago, you put out this performance report for Infrastructure Canada. There's a very nice picture of you in it and your signature and so on. In it you basically admit that your department, your government, couldn't spend any of the money it allocated in 2007-08. Of the $899 million you put forward in five different programs, only 4% of it was expended in that year. I guess there's been a lot of talking. You've talked to a lot of people and you're talking to us today, but I'm wondering if you could get more specific.

Can you tell us the specific actions you're going to take, and can you tell us very specifically how much money you're getting out the door this year? How much money is actually projected now to be spent? Because this most recent record...I think you'd have to admit that 4%, notwithstanding all the caveats you might like to put forward, is a pretty dismal achievement. It's your report card. It's signed by you. There's no money for the Building Canada Fund even committed in estimates and none out the door. There's money committed for a whole range of other programs in terms of the borders, in terms of P3s and so on, and as you see in the report, not a nickel of it is spent.

So we need to understand, Mr. Minister, your grasp on how it is you're going to turn that around so completely. So I'm wondering if you could tell us the specific actions you're taking, because these are your programs that didn't work up to now.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I first looked at what had been the past experience. What is the year of the report you just presented?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

This is this week's performance report for Infrastructure Canada for the fiscal year 2007-08, and it covers all the programs and your performance. And under your signature, Minister, it talks about your accountability, your willingness to be measured by what's in this report, and it makes very clear, Mr. Minister, that all the Conservative initiatives...and in fact, except for the $40 million under one of the funds, for the Pacific gateway, all the rest of the $1.9 billion were initiatives of the previous government. So I think it's really important that you tell us how you're changing things. Also, I think a little demonstration of good faith would be to tell us how you know how much money is being spent this particular fiscal year.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You mentioned it was this week's report and you quoted it was the 2007-08 fiscal year, but of course it was not the period for which I was minister. However, I was a member of the cabinet and I did look at the challenges we've had in recent years.

You mentioned the previous infrastructure program, the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, which I think by all accounts was well received by provinces and territories. It was announced in budget 2001. However, even by 2003 not a single dollar was spent because we have had to negotiate contribution agreements, framework agreements, with every province and territory.

I'll tell you specifically what we've done, because like you I'm not satisfied. I think there is a need for speed at this critical time in our economic history. So here's specifically what we're doing with the new programs we've come forward with in the budget.

I'll talk first about the $4 billion stimulus fund. We will not be negotiating contribution agreements and framework agreements with provinces and territories, so we can move right to end game. We're not going to require a separate federal environmental assessment--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I did have the good fortune of having a briefing from your officials yesterday on what I think you call the five-point plan and the going forward, and I'm just wondering if I could make my question a little more precise. This year you also talk in the budget about compressing the Building Canada Fund. The Building Canada Fund, I think, is what we're interested in. In the current year, how much money will you get out the door? What have you and your government changed? This is your government's record, and I want to draw people's attention to it if they haven't seen it; it's a very nice picture of the minister on the front. It's recognizable perhaps from the provincial house, but it's a good picture. But you're there and you're saying this is me and my accountability.

But can you tell us today, in your current frame, how much money you are spending this year? You're in supplementary estimates, you've asked for more money. Can you tell us exactly, program by program, what will get out the door? You've given $2 billion back to the Treasury over the last two years on the Building Canada Fund alone. I'm sorry, it was $1.5 billion for the Building Canada Fund and over $2 billion overall. There was $1.5 billion allocated, and $2 billion from all programs has been given back to the Treasury because it's lapsed. I guess we need to know that. I think this committee is trying to understand how good you will be at the stimulus if you can't get the money out the door.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You've asked, by my count, 11 questions.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I will focus on one. How much money will you spend this year?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

If you'd like to focus on one, could I suggest you ask one?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

How much money will you spend this year, Minister? There should be a number somewhere in that answer, I think.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You made a significant number of comments that I'd like to respond to.

The last comment was that $1.5 billion had lapsed and gone back to the Treasury. I'm very pleased to tell you that the Treasury has reprofiled all the money, so not a single dollar has lapsed. We've been able to keep every single dollar.

I am not satisfied with the speed with which we've been able to get shovels in the ground. We are not solely responsible, because we don't normally hold the shovels at Infrastructure Canada; in fact we never hold the shovels.

In response to your specific question of what we are going to do differently going forward--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

This year. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to--

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

When you talk about this year, as it's the finance committee considering the budget, I presume you mean--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

It's supplementary estimates for this year, I believe.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You're being contradictory, because you said “this year” and “what are you doing going forward”.

I'm going to respond to what we are doing going forward. We have our five-point action plan. We've looked at every single bureaucratic rule-making...we have within the department.

Premier McGuinty came to the first ministers conference. He brought all the premiers and me a thick binder with the business cases required for the Spadina subway. I asked why this was required as this is not his responsibility. Public transit is a municipal and provincial responsibility. I indicated, for example, to the specific concern he raised, that we would eliminate that requirement so decisions could be made more expeditiously.

I believe that with the work we've done in not requiring provincial framework agreements, not requiring the load of work that's come forward in previous years, together with the five-point action plan, we will be able to spend the full $4 billion that has been appropriated in the budget and that this committee has been asked to consider.

I'm very excited by the opportunity to be held accountable, on three separate occasions, as requested by Parliament.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. I'm sorry, your time is up.

Monsieur Laforest.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning Minister Baird.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Good morning.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Minister, this week, your colleague from Quebec, Ms. Verner, announced that investments would be made to upgrade the water supply system in the city of Shannon. This is owing to the fact that the Canadian Armed Forces were found to be entirely responsible for having contaminated that water system.

Which fund will the money being invested by the federal government be drawn from? Will this investment fall under the previous infrastructure program, or the new one? Ultimately, the question is whether other municipalities with projects underway are going to be penalized. Is the approximately $13 million going to be taken from the general envelope allocated for infrastructure?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Under the provincial framework agreement we have with the Province of Quebec, it is somewhat different--as all agreements are. It requires the provincial government to nominate a project. Obviously it can't come out of the Building Canada Fund; it will come out of the consolidated revenue fund.

I do believe, as Madame Verner argued, that we needed to act on behalf of the people of Shannon. It is not eligible under the framework agreement because it was not nominated by the province. I respect the provincial jurisdiction. We have put in a request, I think to Minister Normandeau, to get the required approval of the Quebec cabinet. The provincial legislation requires consent for municipal partners. I respect that. But obviously it can't come out of the Building Canada Fund; it will come from the CRF.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

So the investment will not come from the Building Canada Initiative, nor the other funds announced in the most recent budget?