Evidence of meeting #51 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was saskatchewan.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Marit  President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Robert Watson  President and Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Telecommunications
Allan Earle  President, Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association
Fred Clipsham  Vice-President, Cities, Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association
Anne Doig  President, Canadian Medical Association
Pierre Beauchamp  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Real Estate Association
Steve McLellan  Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce
Eric Marsh  Vice-President, Corporate Supply Management, Special Projects, USA Division, EnCana Corporation
Gregory Klump  Chief Economist, Canadian Real Estate Association

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I found it interesting that you've come here as a natural gas producer asking us to fund a distribution network. When the gasoline engine was introduced and cars were starting to be built and people were starting to buy them, was the federal government south of the border or the federal government of Canada involved in producing an infrastructure program for the distribution of gasoline?

11:15 a.m.

Vice-President, Corporate Supply Management, Special Projects, USA Division, EnCana Corporation

Eric Marsh

I don't know the answer to that question, so I'll choose not to answer. It was quite some time ago, in the early 1900s.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I know, but it has happened before.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Wallace.

Mr. McKay.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. McLellan, you have an item in your note about the negotiations between the Government of Saskatchewan and the federal government. It looks like you don't think the $180 million to the Government of Saskatchewan is enough to take on a harmonized sales tax. What do you think is adequate?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Steve McLellan

In rough numbers, I would say $450 million.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

That's three times what they're offering.

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

And what's the basis for that?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Steve McLellan

It's based on some of the models that have been established in other jurisdictions. I am not in a position to negotiate it. But I believe that fair treatment across the country is required. Our provincial government needs to believe they can convince the consumers and taxpayers of this province that it's a good deal for everybody. We haven't run specific numbers. It would depend on what was excluded. But in a nutshell it's in that $400-million-plus range.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

My second question has to do with productivity. With respect to reduced debt, the previous Liberal government and this government have given the business community a great deal of what they asked for. We hear that the federal government is getting its financial house in order; we hear of reduced taxes, accelerated capital cost, and so on. But every year the productivity of Canadian business goes down, with some notable exceptions. The notable exceptions seem to be foreign-based companies. Can you tell me why your membership's productivity is going down?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Steve McLellan

That's a difficult question. The productivity in this province has in many ways increased and has in other ways declined. I think it's a problem of vision. We have a tendency in Canada to think too short term. We see consistent requests for strategic planning. I think that's what we need to do. In the business community we're trying to understand how cap-and-trade will affect the future. Companies are holding back on some of their investment opportunities. They need to know whether these initiatives will affect them positively or negatively. The same applies to environmental enhancements. You have to make sure that you're going to get a return on your investments.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

But there also seems to be this drive for profits today as opposed to investments for tomorrow. It's cultural, it's financial--it's everything. I'm not quite sure how business gets off that treadmill. It's a very destructive treadmill in terms of our overall national good, because if you're driving your profits today, you don't retain that machine that takes you to ten years. You throw out the dividends, and then the business is off to China.

11:15 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce

Steve McLellan

There's no question. And I would argue that as much as our business community is starting to think more long term and are cognizant of the short-term issues of dividends, we're probably going to come into a period of time, because some of the challenges to dividends in this past year, where that rush towards enhanced dividends is going to come back to haunt us.

We're seeing challenges in this province where capital investment has not kept up with demand. Whether it's infrastructure or, in our province, energy supply, it's going to come back to bite us. That's where I think we need the difference between good strategic leadership from our federal and provincial governments and having our corporate community coming together to think about things that are longer term and not think about one-year grants and opportunities. If we all do that and that is the mantra across the country, our companies will get a little more in line. But we need a partner in that as well, I would suggest.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you.

My final question is to Mr. Earle. It basically boils down to whether you want your gas tax, which is your regular flow of money, or you want these one-off, shovel-ready projects that have a time limit, when the only shovel-ready quality appears to be the capacity of Conservative cabinet ministers to say they're shovel-ready.

Pick your poison. Do you want the gas tax or these infrastructure projects?

11:20 a.m.

President, Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association

Allan Earle

If I had my druthers I would pick the gas tax because it allows me the opportunity to budget.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

I have two final questions for Ms. Doig. One is from our researchers and one is from me.

We did appreciate your comments about electronic health, and if there's anything further you have on that and you would like to submit it to the committee, even though it's not necessarily related to pre-budget, we'd certainly appreciate that.

The question from our analysts is what effect do provincial licensing bodies have on the supply of health care professionals in Canada? How does this affect health care costs such as salaries? What can the federal government do to alleviate the situation?

And for my question, if you recall the health care first ministers conference years ago where the agreement was signed, Gary Mar, the health minister of Alberta at the time, warned that it was certainly a good step forward but it was not a solution. He said the biggest challenge facing health care in Canada is that a greater proportion of provincial revenues each and every year is going to pay for health care, with our demographic challenges as we move forward. This is a problem that we're going to have to face as a nation, more at the provincial level than the federal level.

What is the CME's position with respect to a greater percentage of revenue going to delivery of those health care services? How do you answer his question over the long term?

I know that's a big question for five minutes, but if you can at least try to deal with both of those....

11:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Medical Association

Dr. Anne Doig

Are you actually going to give me five minutes and not three?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Well, three and a half minutes.

11:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Medical Association

Dr. Anne Doig

Okay.

To your second question first, if I may, I think what you are really alluding to is the philosophical debate that has to occur. It has to occur in a non-partisan way, without party lines. I won't even say across party lines. We need our constituents, our public--my patients, your voters--to engage in the debate about whether or not we continue to expect to have in Canada a single-payer system that is 100% taxation based and that provides first dollar coverage for everything, because if we continue to have those three expectations and on the other side of the equation governments are telling the voters that we don't want to raise taxes, I'm sorry, we have a null equation; it doesn't work. We either have to say yes, these three elements are what we want and we're going to raise the taxes to pay for it, and who knows what our taxation level will get to, or we have to agree that there are other mechanisms that we need to look at, both in terms of funding and in terms of delivery that will address some of the escalating cost issues. Those are some of the proposals you've been hearing from my predecessors in this position over the last two to three years. We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and really think and talk about what it means to deliver health care in Canada.

That is the answer to how we can keep doing this and how we can keep it under 50% of provincial program spending. We're not going to keep it under 50% of provincial program spending if we don't answer those questions.

To the question of health human resources and specifically physician flow and the cost of physicians, the whole issue of licensure, as you know, is up for discussion under some of the changes that are being brought about under AIT. The Federation of Medical Regulatory Authorities of Canada, FMRAC, are looking at how we address the issues of licensure and how we make it more possible for our medical human resources to be used across the country more effectively.

I spoke earlier about telehealth. Telehealth requires broadband capability and it requires physicians to have IT infrastructure. It also requires physicians to be able to work in provinces other than their own, so if I'm practising in Sioux Lookout, Ontario, and I need a telehealth opinion from a consultant in Winnipeg, that consultant in Winnipeg needs to be licensed in Ontario. Under our present model, that means individual applications by that physician to each province. It means individual adjudication by colleges of physicians and surgeons as to whether or not to grant that licensure, and it costs the physician money every year for annual licence fees. In today's world, where portability and a virtual reality of being able to exchange information and provide opinion, that's nonsense, in my opinion.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Under AIT, are they working toward...? If say in Saskatchewan they are licensed, the other provinces would then accept that?

11:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Medical Association

Dr. Anne Doig

The short answer is yes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much. I appreciate those answers.

We appreciate all of your presentations and your responses to all of our questions. It was an excellent discussion this morning. If you have anything further you would like the committee to look at, please submit that to the clerk. I will ensure all members get it.

Thank you all for your time this morning.

The meeting is adjourned.