Finance Committee on Oct. 21st, 2009

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I understand the argument, and there's not a person who disagrees with you on that point. In fact, most of the people around this table will never collect EI either. I paid for it all my working life. But that's not the point.

The point is that the government was going to be faced with a choice, either to raise the premiums on EI, as a separate fund, or to go into general revenues. So what would your advice be on that point?

[Wayne Samuelson]

Quickly, I'd go back and get the money you stole out of the fund.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

It's gone.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Then it comes out of general revenues. The government of the day took the money out of the fund; it was a surplus. Maybe they had good reason for it. I'll let others decide that. But I know one thing. Today those people need that help. However you figure out how you're going to get the money, they need the help.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I just wanted that information.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

We'll go to Mr. Dechert, please.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your presentations. I appreciate your suggestions and your time in putting together these presentations.

I'd like to first ask a question of Ms. Menard.

It's good to see you again. I believe the last time we were together was at an announcement of a retrofit project for Peel social housing. For Mr. Pacetti, that is in the federal riding of Mississauga—Streetsville, which is represented by one of his colleagues. There was no cheque on that occasion, but it was an important project, and I know that Peel does a wonderful job in trying to provide social housing for those who need it. I agree with you that you can't have quality of life without a quality place to live.

I hope that was helpful. In your comments, I think you said that it was.

What more is needed to be done in Peel region? Can you talk about how the provision of affordable housing impacts on the integration of new Canadians, since you know that's a major issue in Peel region? And further on that point, can you tell us what more needs to be done generally in terms of newcomer settlement services?

We've been increasing support for settlement services through CIC since 2006, but there's still a need in Peel. You and others have told me that. Maybe you could give us a little background on that.

[Janet Menard]

I'd be happy to.

To answer your first question in terms of what more needs to be done by way of affordable housing, in our region we have 13,000-plus families on a waiting list, and if they signed up today, by virtue of our turnover they'd have to wait 21 years to get social housing. Obviously that's not a solution.

We're happy to invest in social housing and we use whatever provincial dollars are available, but we absolutely need a partnership at all three levels of government. We need the federal government at the table. We need--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

This is the first time the federal government has made investments in social housing in 20 years, I think, since the mid-1980s. Is that correct?

[Janet Menard]

I'm not an historian on social housing.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

That's just my recollection. That's okay.

[Janet Menard]

We do get money for rent supplements through the federal government, but those dollars are scheduled for termination in 2011 and withdrawal over time, so that's a huge concern for us. We need money to build more social housing. We need dollars to increase the rent-geared-to-income subsidies that allow people to live in social housing. And we need to increase rent geared to income.

We need one of two things. We need money to invest in those funds, or we need capital dollars when we build the buildings to keep the operational costs low. If we can keep the operational costs low, then the people paying market rent can create revenue that can be turned into subsidies. So whether the federal government helps us in the construction or the subsidies, we need partners to help us.

The impact that the lack of affordable housing has on newcomers is dramatic, on a number of levels. I'll just speak to one that I think is extremely important and that you'd be interested in. It's the fact that newcomers cannot take the time they need to get their credentials, to get Canadian experience. They end up taking survival jobs that don't really allow them to move to jobs that are appropriate for their skills and resources. Newcomers actually come here with great education, great resources, and because they're spending their hard-earned low incomes to put roofs over their heads, they're not able to move and integrate into society.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm sorry, I have to ask you to pause there, but I may come back in another round. I want to ask a quick question of Mr. Samuelson.

I agree in terms of your concern about plant closures in Ontario. In my region of Mississauga and Peel, we've experienced a lot of plant closures in manufacturing. This is of grave concern, not only in Ontario but across Canada.

You know our government has significantly increased funds for skills training for older and laid-off workers and extended EI benefits for two years for those who are taking skills retraining. What more do we need to do to help workers in these places you've mentioned acquire the skills they need to go into different lines of work, recognizing that those plants that have closed are probably not coming back?

[Wayne Samuelson]

The short answer—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Of course.

[Wayne Samuelson]

—is that the way we're doing it now ain't working. It seems that we haven't taken it seriously.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do we direct people into specific areas of training? What do we do?

[Wayne Samuelson]

No, I think we get the people at the table, and we acknowledge that this is something we've never seen before. The people aren't going to go back to these factories. They're going to have to change. We have to understand that.

Then we put long-term supports in place. We put more responsibility on the employers who are leaving. The plant I worked in—and this is seared in my mind—announced they were closing six months before they closed. They opened a help centre two months after they closed. In that eight-month period, society and government should have been in there. We should have been pulling people out. We should have been offering them real training alternatives. I could write a book on the people I know and what they went through—the processes they had to undergo to get small amounts of money, the reasons they couldn't qualify. Frankly, I just don't think we take it seriously.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

We need longer periods of training.

[Wayne Samuelson]

Yes, longer periods of training, a lot more money, quicker intervention, more responsibility on employers—all that is necessary.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

For the record, what was the name of the plant?

[Wayne Samuelson]

BFGoodrich.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Dechert.

Mr. Pacetti.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for appearing. It's a challenge for us to get questions to everybody around the table.

Mr. Christianson, you were talking about an income tax deduction, and you also spoke about a tax credit. What would the difference in accessibility be for both? In your first recommendation, you talk about a tax credit and then you talk about a tax deduction. Where do you see the differences? Could you clarify that?

[Steven Christianson]

The deduction would apply to the removal of architectural or transportation barriers, adaptations to a building, or an information system. The credit would be for smaller items, not necessarily major retrofits to the organization but perhaps the production of accessible formats.