Evidence of meeting #53 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colleges.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tyler Charlebois  Director of Advocacy, College Student Alliance
Shannon Litzenberger  Executive Director, Canadian Dance Assembly
Andy Manahan  Executive Director, Residential and Civil Construction Alliance of Ontario
Paul Charette  Chairman, Bird Construction, Employers' Coalition for Advanced Skills
Pamela Fralick  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association, Employers' Coalition for Advanced Skills
Linda Franklin  President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges Ontario
Lucy White  Executive Director, Professional Association of Canadian Theatres
John Argue  Coordinator, Ontario Coalition for Social Justice
Mark Chamberlain  Member, National Council of Welfare
Robert Howard  President, Canadian Institute of Actuaries
Michael Shapcott  Director, Affordable Housing and Social Innovation, Wellesley Institute
Nimira Lalani  Research Associate, Wellesley Institute
Robert Mann  President, Canadian Association of Physicists
Dominic Ryan  President, Canadian Institute for Neutron Scattering, Canadian Association of Physicists
David Adams  President, Association of International Automobile Manufacturers of Canada
Peter Carayiannis  Director, Legal and Government Relations, Canadian Association of Income Funds
Jim Hall  Vice-President, Sales and Marketing, Hoffmann-La Roche Limited
Ronald Holgerson  Vice-President, Advancement and Public Affairs, Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology
Deborah Windsor  Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada
Steven Christianson  Manager, Government Relations and Advocacy, March of Dimes Canada
Larry Molyneaux  President, Police Association of Ontario
Wayne Samuelson  President, Ontario Federation of Labour
Bruce Creighton  Director, Canadian Business Press
Etan Diamond  Manager, Policy and Research, Ontario Municipal Social Services Association
Janet Menard  Board Member, Commissioner of Human Services for the Regional Municipality of Peel, Ontario Municipal Social Services Association
Bruce Drewett  President, Canadian Paraplegic Association
William Adair  Executive Director, Canadian Paraplegic Association
Richard St. Denis  As an Individual
Doris Grinspun  Executive Director, Registered Nurses' Association of Ontario
Judith Shamian  President and Chief Executive Officer, VON Canada (Victorian Order of Nurses)
Christopher McLean  Director, Government Relations, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Allyson Hewitt  Director, Social Entrepreneurship, Social Innovation Generation

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I'm not saying I deserve much. I just am asking that question.

2:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

Wayne Samuelson

I think you're probably going to do okay.

2:10 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

2:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

Wayne Samuelson

I suspect that this will be one of the issues of debate. I think our proposal talks about phasing it in over time, so in effect the benefit would go to those who pay over time. It's similar to how we've done changes to CPP in the past.

In terms of the calculation about doubling the benefit and whether you in fact double the premium, we've done some research, and I think you're aware of this. I hope you are. If you aren't, I'm sure the Canadian Labour Congress can provide it. It would say that because of the effectiveness and efficiency of a national plan such as that one, there wouldn't necessarily be a doubling.

But I think there's probably a bigger issue here--

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

But I don't have time. I have more questions and limited time.

2:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

Wayne Samuelson

Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have about three and a half minutes.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Go ahead.

2:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

Wayne Samuelson

Okay. You wouldn't necessarily have to double it. Calculations have been done that say you wouldn't have to, but clearly you would have to phase it in. That's my point about saying that you need to make these decisions today in order to provide for tomorrow.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I totally agree. I think pensions are a huge issue. We're seeing it with all these stories in the Globe and so on. It's starting to come alive. I really agree with you. It's crucial for the country.

2:10 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I now want to ask a question to Ms. Windsor, if I may.

Your second and third proposals I think I'm fine with, but I have a little problem with your first one, where you talk about the tax penalty implicit in the Income Tax Act in terms of copyright income.

If you go by the theory that a dollar is a dollar is a dollar as far as income is concerned, why is it a tax penalty implicit in the Income Tax Act when income from copyright is taxed? I would have thought, generally speaking, that any kind of income ought to be taxed.

2:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

Deborah Windsor

The income that a creator earns is so minuscule. Being self-employed, creators unfortunately don't have pensions, benefits, or even the ability to participate in EI, even if they pay through another job.

They have a very unbalanced schedule to start with. Then, when it comes to copyright income, they don't have adequate deductions to apply against it so they end up with peaks and valleys in their income. Also, their income is received in a fluctuating manner. The author of a book may take three years to write a book. That author will put in three years' work, will get an advance in the fourth year, and then will be taxed in that fourth year as if he or she had generated all of that income in one year.

By implementing a copyright income deduction program, you would be able to somewhat chop off the top--

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I can easily understand the case of income smoothing, but I still don't understand why you call it a tax penalty. I think you've achieved something similar to tax smoothing, which I would support—

2:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

—but I have trouble not with proposals numbers two and three but with the first one.

I'll ask Mr. Holgerson a question. I like your idea of encouraging federal government agencies to support youthful entrepreneurs. I wasn't aware that the Business Development Bank did that at all. Now, does it?

2:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Advancement and Public Affairs, Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology

Ronald Holgerson

We searched the websites of all of those organizations, and there were opportunities in all of them for you to start a business. Whether it specifically does it for young entrepreneurs I was not able to determine in the information I've perused.

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Maybe a good idea would be for the Business Development Bank to be encouraged to start up such a thing.

2:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Advancement and Public Affairs, Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology

Ronald Holgerson

I would also—

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I'm certainly not aware that it's active in that area.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

We're going to go to Monsieur Laforest.

For those of you who require translation, there are headsets, and English is on channel 1.

Monsieur Laforest.

2:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to all the witnesses.

I find that presentation particularly interesting. As you well know, we have been all across Canada; we have been to Vancouver, Edmonton and to several other cities. A number of groups have made presentations to the committee and to the government on various aspects of our social, economic and community life. But, on the matter of employment insurance, very specific proposals have been made along the same lines as Mr. Samuelson provided just now.

The noteworthy thing today is that a group like the Ontario Municipal Social Services Association, in a way, backs up what workers' representatives are saying. They are saying that, because the employment insurance program has not been reformed, and because it does not reach enough of the people living in very difficult circumstances, it affects many people in areas such as health, affordable housing and homelessness. People are having a great deal of difficulty because of the employment insurance program, as I said to a social development representative this morning. Half the people without jobs, if not a little more than half, are not eligible for employment insurance benefits.

I would like to hear your comments on that, Mr. Samuelson. Let us certainly not forget that, for the last 15 or 16 years, under both the Conservative government and the preceding Liberal government, the employment insurance program has been used to pay off Canada's deficit. Fifty-seven billion dollars has been taken from the fund. It is important for associations that are demanding improvements also to make proposals to serve as warnings to the government. They should say that the employment insurance fund must never again become a deficit insurance fund and that the deficit must not be paid off by the workers and employers who pay into the employment insurance fund.

I would like to hear your opinion on that, Mr. Samuelson.

2:15 p.m.

President, Ontario Federation of Labour

Wayne Samuelson

Listen, I think that what happened is absolutely outrageous, that people took money from the fund that workers and employers had paid into.

As I said earlier, I travel a lot. I've travelled across this province. I've been into these small communities. People have come to me and they've talked about what it's doing to them. And they don't understand. You know, they've paid into this fund, some of them for years and years. And when they need it, it's not there for them.

I think it's tragic. If you sense any frustration in my voice, it's because we all know what needs to be done. We all know how to provide the benefits to these people who need them so badly. But it seems to me there doesn't appear to be the political courage to stand up and do it. And I feel so much for the people who are impacted.

I should point out to you—for me, it's a bit personal—about the plant I talked about, which they closed about three or four years ago, that half of those people still don't have jobs or they're going through temporary work agencies. They've run out their EI. They've spent their severance. They're now selling their homes. And I think it's outrageous that we just sit back and allow this to continue.

Thank you for your comments. I just ask the committee to deal with this.

2:20 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you.

I have a question for Mr. Holgerson. I am not very familiar with the Ontario education system. I know the Quebec system much better, of course. It has both private colleges and public colleges. Is it the same here in Ontario? Is Mohawk College a private college? If so, how much do students have to pay to attend it?

2:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Advancement and Public Affairs, Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology

Ronald Holgerson

There are 24 public colleges in Ontario that receive money from the province. There are also private colleges. Mohawk College is one of the 24 public colleges. The students pay tuition fees and the government provides scholarships for each student.