Finance Committee on Oct. 26th, 2009

[Mark Rudolph]

No, we aren't. In fact, if I may, let me just read you something. You've heard from us as a coalition; you've heard from an industry group, CanWEA; you've heard from some environment groups. Let me read you this. It just deals with wind, but it applies to all renewables: While the rest of the world's governments plunge ahead in developing more wind energy, Canada is dithering. A federal program to spur investment in wind farms will expire this year, but the government refuses to say what, if anything, will replace it. The only assumption an investor can make is that support for renewable energy is ending this fall.

This comes from an editorial printed today in the Edmonton Sun.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Granted, and I'm certainly not discounting that. But I'll tell you one thing I don't take a lot of solace from, and that's editorials. Editorials can come from each and every way. Empirical evidence is what we need. We need facts. We need data. We don't need opinions coming forward--

[Mark Rudolph]

Our industry is not strong enough today, sir, because we haven't had sufficient support by the government to make it strong and able to compete on a global scale.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Great, and what I'm suggesting is that you provide us with definite areas where we can be helpful. If you're saying dollars is one, that might obviously be there, but it might be regulatory control, it might be other circumstances. We'd appreciate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

This is your last question.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

I wish I had more time.

My last question is for the biotech area. Canada has traditionally been reasonably effective at R and D--incubation so-so, commercialization horrendous.

Why is that? Is it just because as a nation we are a very cautious, prudent people? Why is it that we just don't seem to have the international--or the national--investment dollars that want to come into Canadian projects?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

A quick response, please.

[Dr. Rainer Engelhardt]

I think it relates a lot to what the nature of the biotechnology business is, in particular health biotechnology, which is a long time to fruition, from product to market. The value increment starts very low at the beginning, with a high risk, and it moves through 10 to 15 years to be able to have a highly valuable product on the market. I think that is really where we are for the majority of the companies in Canada; they are SMEs.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Mulcair, s'il vous plaît.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank everyone who is taking part in this process of reflection this afternoon. We do not have much time, so we do not always have an opportunity to ask all our questions, however your documents do provide us with a lot of answers.

Ms. Britski, could you tell us what sums of money you are talking about here, based on the calculation of average income over a five-year period? You mentioned that there are other places, including in Quebec, but also in Europe, and notably in France and in the United Kingdom, where that kind of thing is done. How much would it cost Canadian taxpayers if we were to implement your recommendation, which, incidentally, we support?

You can also respond, Mr. Villeneuve.

[Mario Villeneuve, National President, Canadian Artists' Representation]

Tax payments would just be deferred. Payments would be spread over a longer period rather than the Canadian government not receiving anything at all.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

In other words, an artist who gets a major contract of $100,000, in a given year, would not have to pay the full amount in taxes immediately, it could be spread over five years based on $20,000 per year. So there would be a tax cost to the state.

Could you give a ballpark figure on this cost?

[Mario Villeneuve]

Personally speaking, I don't know of any artists who get $100,000 contracts, but it would be very nice if they existed. That being said, a good year for a visual artist in Canada might be an income of $40,000, but the average is $10,000 to $15,000 over three years, and a good year would be $30,000 to $40,000.

You need to understand that, often, artists are engaged in a production process that lasts several years. So, the first year, second year, and third year, the artist is financing his production at a loss and it is only in the third year that he might draw an income, or perhaps he never will. So having an opportunity to spread your income over a longer period, as we already know, would be very beneficial.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

We will try and verify that.

I would now like to engage the people from Clean Air Renewable Energy. There is no French name for your group, is there? No, so it is the same in French.

Part of the problem as I see it right now is the main principle underpinning sustainable development, that is the internationalization of costs, is not being applied to oil produced by the tar sands. We do not internationalize the various costs to the environment and for future generations.

And yet, with the tar sands, with the coal we are burning to produce electricity in the west and in Ontario, we are letting pollutants escape into the atmosphere, and the cost per kWh does not represent the real cost, at least not from an environmental standpoint.

Are you telling us that we should continue with the 1¢ per kWh until such time as we have internationalized costs? Are you asking us to start internationalizing the real cost to the environment?

[Timothy Weis, Director, Renewable Energy and Efficiency, Pembina Institute]

Certainly a carbon price would be something that would definitely push renewable energy forward throughout Canada. One of the issues, though, in Canada, particularly around electricity, is that in Quebec, for example, or Manitoba or British Columbia, the electricity basis is hydro-based by and large, so a carbon price wouldn't necessarily support development in those provinces.

So it would inequitably support development in different provinces. That's one of the nice mechanisms about the current program, that it's equitable for all provinces to access.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Am I mistaken or are you making an intentional distinction when you refer to power rather than energy?

For example, a wind turbine doesn't have any power, but it can produce energy thanks to the power of wind. This energy, when twinned with a hydroelectric dam, can produce a continuous supply, by using the best of both worlds.

When you refer specifically to power and not energy, is that deliberate? Are the terms interchangeable in your vocabulary?

[Mark Rudolph]

The coalition has always focused merely on utility-scale power. It's never been involved in renewable fuels or anything of that sort.

Going back to the original question, what you're fundamentally talking about is the whole question of externalization and internalization of cost from an environmental perspective. Given your role as a minister of the environment in the past, you would well know that there are umpteen numbers of things that we, in society, should internalize the costs of in order to make them more expensive so we don't use them or change behaviour or help protect the environment or people's health.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

And so that it represents the real cost.

[Mark Rudolph]

But the reality is that there has been no government who's ever had the political will to change. And until such time as everyone changes, no one will change.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

You understand the paradox. You're telling me that we need to take money from the government's Consolidated Revenue Fund and use it for something extremely good. I support you entirely and we agree on this. However, the problem is that this money could be accessed more easily by internalizing the real cost of the tar sands. What's more, the tar sands are currently skewing the value of our money, because the price that we're paying isn't real. So, I think we're going down the wrong track by not having a comprehensive approach which takes all these factors into account.

Obviously, having worked in this field for quite some time, I observe the same things that you do. We need to focus on clean, renewable energy. And at the same time, the best way to get this money is not, in my opinion, to dig into the government's Consolidated Revenue Fund, but rather by internalizing the costs to future generations of what amounts to a preposterous exploitation of a source of wealth that we have at our disposal but that we are managing very poorly.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Briefly, Mr. Rudolph, please.

[Mark Rudolph]

I'm going to say I'll agree...and I would love to have a conversation about this afterwards.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you.

I'll go to Mr. Pacetti, please, for five minutes.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming forward. It's always interesting. As the previous member just stated, it's difficult for us to ask questions to everybody, but we'll try our best.

I have a question for the Canadian Association for Community Living.

Ms. MacQuarrie, you were stating that you'd like to see the disability tax credit become refundable. I agree that perhaps we should be doing more for people with intellectual disabilities. My question is how do we make sure that they will get the money themselves and it will be properly utilized? Is there a service mechanism to make sure that they're going to use the money and that somebody else isn't taking the money from them?

[Anna MacQuarrie]

Sure. The disability tax credit is specific to an individual. It's attached to them.

I would just point out that the DTC is a pretty high gate to begin with. It's for people with severe, prolonged disabilities. They are those who are most likely most in need of access to that money--