They can always be on division.
Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hst.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #70 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hst.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
So they can always be on division. Thank you very much. Those are my questions. Let's move on to clause-by-clause.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Thank you, Mr. Wallace, for those questions.
We will go to clause-by-clause consideration.
Members, here's the way I will proceed, unless members indicate to me otherwise--
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Mr. Wallace, I will say, “Shall clause 2 carry?”, and we will go that way, unless members wish to group clauses together to speed this along.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Mr. Wallace moves clauses 2 to 44.
Mr. Mulcair, on a point of order.
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I'll do it in English, so there's nothing literally lost in the translation.
As the chair, you just set down the rule that we were going to go clause by clause. And then you seem, unless I missed something, to have accepted a recommendation to adopt the law holus-bolus, as one part. That's a contradiction. I think its a way of contesting the decision of the chair. And I think that—
8 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
It's not for me to be defending you; you should be defending yourself.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
No, I can explain. My intention was to say, “Shall clause 2 carry? Shall clause 3 carry? Shall clause 4 carry?” But as I mentioned, it is procedurally admissible for a member to say, “ I move that clauses 2 to 44 carry”.
8 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
With respect, Mr. Chairman, we're here tonight at your call. You've set out an order of the day, which you just indicated you intended to follow. This was your decision, and I support it. Now you have one of your Conservative colleagues attacking you like this, showing a total lack of respect for your authority. I intend to defend the chair and the chair's decision, which was clearly rendered, to proceed in the normal way, which is clause by clause. And I insist you do that.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I sincerely appreciate your support for my chairmanship, Mr. Mulcair.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
My intention was to proceed clause by clause. But as I did mention, members of the committee can choose to group together a number of clauses. I checked that with our legislative clerk. He indicated it was appropriate for a member to move it as such.
If you want the legislative clerk to comment on that....
8 p.m.
Wayne Cole Procedural Clerk
If it's not the will of the committee and they dispute it, they can debate the motion.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
If the committee wishes to debate each single clause, the committee can do so. If the committee wishes to proceed with clauses 2 to 44.... Of course if we do that—clauses 2 to 44—members of the committee may debate as long as they want to. They can address all of those clauses within that debate.
So Mr. Wallace has moved that clauses 2 to 44 carry. The discussion is on that.
Mr. Mulcair, on the discussion.
8 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'll begin by reading for my colleagues some extracts in English and in French from the position of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. Unlike the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters association that was here a little bit earlier, it actually has members. There are 105,000 members of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. Recently they wrote to all of your colleagues, and they provided me with a copy of it—today, in fact.
I'll start with the French.
8 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
However, many CFIB members expect to be negatively affected by sales tax harmonization—particularly those selling products and services not currently taxed at the provincial level. Small businesses in these sectors are very worried about consumer reaction to the price increases they will be required to pass on with the expansion of the sales tax.
As you know, Mr. Chairman, the Fédération canadienne de l'entreprise indépendante is the French name of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. They go on to say the following—although I do not intend to read everything, given the limited time.
We have heard many comments from members in Ontario and British Columbia that suggest concern that sales tax harmonization will not end up as revenue neutral or a tax reduction, but lead to an overall increase in the tax burden on Canadians.
That is very important.
I would also like to note that there was similar worry on the part of small firms in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador when those provinces undertook similar harmonization initiatives. After extensive consultation with the federal and provincial governments and surveys of our members in the affected provinces, CFIB offered support to the initiative. In our view, two important factors helped achieve small business support for the HST in these provinces.
Here they are referring to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador.
One, there was a benefit to consumers built into the change, as the combined sales tax rates were reduced at the same time as the base broadened; and two, small businesses themselves felt part of the process, as there was a degree of consultation missing from current initiatives. It often surprises public policy makers that small business owners often view things through the eyes of their customers, rather than through the lens of their own business.
That is what we have just seen with the first nations.
And now we come to the crux of their analysis.
I believe the lack of an overall rate reduction partly explains the concern our members have with the harmonization initiatives in Ontario and British Columbia.
Mr. Chairman, unlike Mr. Wallace, you clearly understood the fundamental difference between what occurred when the Maritime provinces harmonized their taxes and what is about to be done in Ontario and British Columbia. For greater certainty, allow me to read the corresponding passages in the English version.
However, many CFIB members expect to be negatively affected by sales tax harmonization--particularly those selling products and services not currently taxed at the provincial level. Small businesses in these sectors are very worried about consumer reaction to the price increases they will be required to pass on with the expansion of the sales tax.
They go on a bit further. Time is a bit short tonight. We don't have as much time as we'd like to deal with this issue, so I'll skip ahead.
We have heard many comments from members in Ontario and British Columbia that suggest concern that sales tax harmonization will not end up as revenue neutral or a tax reduction, but lead to an overall increase in the tax burden on Canadians.
Then he goes on to say--and the “he” in question, Mr. Chair, which I didn't say before when I read it in French, is Dan Kelly, senior vice-president, legislative affairs, at the Canadian Federation of Independent Business--this:
I would like to note that there were similar worries on the part of small firms in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador when those provinces...undertook similar harmonization initiatives. After extensive consultation with the federal and provincial governments....
It should be pointed out again that that's what was lacking, according to the first nations who were here earlier.
...and surveys of our members in the affected provinces, CFIB offered support to the initiative....
--in those provinces, but it doesn't offer its support for the Ontario and British Columbia initiative. That's interesting, and they explain why:
In our view, two important factors helped achieve small business support for the HST in these provinces. One, there was a benefit to consumers built into the change as the combined sales tax rates were reduced at the same time as the base broadened, and two, small businesses themselves felt part of the process as there was a degree of consultation missing from current initiatives.
Of course, as we saw tonight--
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Mr. Mulcair, we have a point of order.
Do you have a point of order, Mr. Menzies?