Order.
Evidence of meeting #15 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was part.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #15 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was part.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
That's right.
If there is a request, we can make a request. I don't know specifically what documents we would be—
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We've just been told that studies and scenarios and modelling have been done as to the potential costs. The member of Parliament who is sitting in the corner over there decided that he knows that they're cabinet documents. We have no such information. If he has been given access to cabinet documents, we should be given the same access, because he's just a member of Parliament, as we are.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
As the chair, I will make the request that if there are any documents that can be made available to the committee, please make them available to the clerk and they will be made available to all members.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My second question is about the number of jobs that might be lost, because that is part of the larger issue.
We know that the Liberals support this amendment to the Canada Post Corporation Act. Mr. Wallace's quotation from Mr. McKay is a good example that shows the Liberals' support for this effort by the Conservatives. As well, if Mr. Wallace wants to supplement his reading of the Liberal record, I would inform him, if he wants to expand his Liberal sources, Mr. Chair, that Joe Volpe has said exactly the same thing as John McKay in the past.
I would like to know, Ms. Moynihan, whether you have information for us concerning the number of jobs that might be lost at Canada Post, if this were passed.
4:05 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
If the bill is not passed, thousands of jobs in the remailing industry are threatened. If the bill is passed, no job losses at Canada Post are predicted.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
So you have models from which you can make that statement. Mr. Chair, I am asking to see the models that led to that conclusion.
4:05 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
As I said earlier, the percentage of revenue that Canada Post risks losing because of remailing is relatively minimal. As well, Canada Post has collective agreements that give its unionized employees a lot of job security. That is why I can make that assertion.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Mr. Chair, I will conclude by congratulating Ms. Moynihan and thanking her. Too often, the committee meets people who have had to demonstrate sufficient knowledge of French for the positions they hold, but never use it before the parliamentary committee. Ms. Moynihan made valiant efforts to give answers in French for most of the questions in French. I would like to congratulate her and thank her.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC
I would like to come back to the number of jobs. Of course, we will be able to see that from the models requested by Mr. Mulcair. You say that if the bill is not enacted, the private sector could lose thousands of jobs. I am trying to understand. That means that $40 million would be generated by thousands of jobs. I am thinking that the $40 million does not represent just the revenue that would be in question. Clearly with thousands of jobs, a lot more work and revenue is generated than $40 million. I am trying to understand this threat. We are told that if, for example, the Liberal Party voted largely with us against Bill C-9, and it didn't pass, the private sector would lose thousands of jobs. I don't see how thousands of jobs could be lost solely because of $40 million.
If you are right, that means there would be the opposite effect on the Canada Post Corporation. Plainly, remailing is not going to double overnight. If the Canada Post Corporation continues to do it exclusively, with its employees, without adding any, thousands of jobs will be lost.
On the other hand, you say that if the private sector enters this market, thousands of jobs will be preserved. The Canada Post Corporation will not eliminate jobs. This means there is some inefficiency somewhere. I am trying to understand.
4:10 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
I think I have to separate the two numbers.
The estimate of the number of companies and the number of employees is based on what is active in Canada today. Right now there are hundreds of companies and thousands of employees in the remail business. There will be a decision point, when votes happen on this bill, and there may or may not be a change.
If there is a change, if the law is adopted as proposed, those hundreds of companies and thousands of jobs would be expected to continue.
It may be that new companies will move into the remail business and do more business and maybe hire more employees. That is where we start into that revenue risk for Canada Post.
If the bill is enacted, more companies will be doing remailing and there will be less work at Canada Post. We can imagine there will be lost revenue estimated at between $40 and $80 million. However, we do not foresee job losses at Canada Post because of two facts, as I explained earlier. The impact on Canada Post's revenue would be quite minimal, on the order of 0.5% or 1%, and we are talking about quite a large company. In addition, Canada Post's collective agreements give its unionized employees job security.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC
If you will allow me, Mr. Chair, I concur in Mr. Mulcair's request.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC
You really have to have a good, thorough econometric model, to give as many details as you are giving. It is based on hypotheses for the development of this system. It would be very nice to see that model.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Am I mistaken, madam? Remailing happens a lot between Canada and the United States?
4:10 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
Yes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Am I also mistaken when I say there are companies like Transcontinental and Quebecor that have printing plants, which I know a little about, being a printer myself, throughout North America?
They are the two main players in North America. I'm not part of them, unfortunately. They do a huge volume of business between the two countries, Canada and the United States. The jobs Mr. Paillé referred to have been around for 20 years. When you say thousands of jobs could be lost, are we agreed that these are jobs that already exist?
4:10 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
Yes, that's right.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I'm not a minister of finance, but I can understand that in business, positioning may be strategic. You may decide to print things in the United States because they have to be remailed and it is easier to do it from there, and so on. I understood the mechanics behind it, I don't need any proof other than what you are giving.
In any event, if Canada Post is doing the job, and I think that corporation does an exceptional job in Canada, it can even go and try to get market shares, starting when it is deregulated.
4:10 p.m.
Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance - ADC, Department of Transport
Excuse me?
