Evidence of meeting #39 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Howard Mains  Consultant, Public Policy, Association of Equipment Manufacturers
Ron Watkins  President, Canadian Steel Producers Association
John Tak  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association
Paul Stothart  Vice-President, Economic Affairs, Mining Association of Canada
Lorraine Hébert  Executive Director, Regroupement québécois de la danse, Mouvement pour les arts et les lettres
Richard Monk  Past Chair, Certified Management Accountants of Canada
Denis St-Pierre  Chair of the Tax and Fiscal Policy Advisory Group, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Carole Presseault  Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Andrew Van Iterson  Manager, Green Budget Coalition
Tim Weis  Director, Renewable Energy and Efficiency Policy, Pembina Institute
Jody Ciufo  Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association
Michael Toye  Executive Director, Canadian Community Economic Development Network
Stacia Kean  Member of the Board of Directors, Canadian Community Economic Development Network
Diane Watts  Researcher, REAL Women of Canada
Barry Turner  Chair, Green Budget Coalition

10:55 a.m.

Diane Watts Researcher, REAL Women of Canada

Thank you for inviting us to appear before this committee today.

REAL Women of Canada is a national organization of women from all walks of life and from differing economic, social, cultural, and religious backgrounds. We are united by our concern for the family, the basic unit of society.

Since our incorporation in 1983, REAL Women of Canada has promoted the equality, advancement, and well-being of women, recognizing them as interdependent members of society, whether in the family, workplace, or community.

The federal Conservative government is to be commended for eliminating some forms of discrimination against the family in taxation. Positive developments from a family perspective include: pension splitting for retired Canadians; making the spousal tax deduction equal to that of the principal earner; providing the $2,000 tax credit for parents with children under 18 years of age; and raising the basic personal deduction in personal income tax.

We have four recommendations.

We recommend the end of tax discrimination against the single-income family. Federal tax policy discriminates against the career choice made by women who choose the career of full-time homemaker. For example, the child care expense deduction program provides to the double-income family $7,000 a year in tax deductions for children under seven and $4,000 for children seven to sixteen years of age, but makes no similar provision available to parents living on the salary of one parent and caring for children at home.

This inequity is based on the false assumption that parent-based child care has no expenses. In reality, all forms of child care have associated expenses. All children are of equal value, and their care should be so treated in law. Public policy should equally assist parents if they choose to care for their own children in the home environment. Child care costs exist because children exist, not because both parents work outside the home.

Another way to correct inequality in family taxation would be to recognize the family unit rather than the individual for tax purposes. Income splitting would address this preferential treatment for certain family configurations such as double-income families.

Our second recommendation is that the universal child care benefit possibly should be increased. Canadian families appreciate the popular universal child care benefit of $100 a month for children under six. We recommend maintaining this benefit and perhaps increasing it.

Number three, government funding of day care must go directly to parents and not to day care facilities. Universal day care, now called early childhood education, denies parents a choice of child care alternatives by restricting government subsidies to regulated day care facilities, to the detriment of every other type of child care arrangement. This one-size-fits-all scheme will inevitably increase taxation, which will result in more and more women having to enter the paid workforce in order for the family to survive financially.

In Canada the provinces subsidize day care. Approximately $10,000 a year is given to day care facilities for each child in day care, whereas a child cared for at home by a parent receives no equivalent support. No child should be given preferential treatment simply because both his parents are employed.

It is essential that child care legislation support a flexible system so that child care can fit the different needs of Canadian families. Fairness would occur if funding for day care went directly to parents, not to day care facilities.

Number four is to end funding of special interest groups. Status of Women Canada's so-called anti-discrimination objective is equality and “full participation of women in the economic, social and democratic life of Canada”. Unfortunately, this is interpreted to exclude the contribution made by women who offer care and formation at home for their children, family members with health problems, and elderly relatives.

This is a serious bias. We have called for the disbanding of this department for many years. This department provides funding or grants for many women's organizations. No single government agency or ideology can represent the views of all Canadian women, as no single agency or ideology can represent all Canadian men. In order to provide a level playing field for all groups, to avoid government-initiated discrimination, and to decrease unnecessary government spending, the federal government, we believe, should end all special interest funding.

In conclusion, I would like to emphasize that the future of our country depends on the strength of our families. We believe that the family, which is the foundation of the nation, should be central to the formation of all public policy.

Thank you very much.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you for your presentation.

We'll start members' questions with Mr. Szabo, for seven minutes.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

Let me comment to REAL Women that I remember giving a petition in the House, probably over 100 times, that referred to managing the family home and caring for preschool children as an honourable profession that has not been recognized for its value in our society. If that's the starting point, which I think it is, I tend to agree that we have to help people make choices that are fitting for their family. One size doesn't fit all.

I would like to turn to the Green Budget Coalition, which represents a broad range of groups that I think Canadians align themselves with. In fact, I think Canadians are probably hungry for more discussion about a green economy, climate change, and all of the related areas.

One of your areas of recommendation has to do with alien invasive species. You're looking for about $215 million. The first thing that came to me when I was on the environment committee was that the IJC, which is the Canada-U.S. commission that looks at the Great Lakes part of it, has absolutely no teeth whatsoever. It never has done anything, and yet it is apparently the representative body that's going to help us with that problem. When you look at the potential costs and damage of the Asian carp or something like that--and we've dealt with a few--for every one that you get rid of, like the zebra mussels, another two appear.

Have you given any thought to whether we need to recommend that the IJC seek a renewed mandate, one that gives them some teeth to deal with alien invasive species in the Great Lakes?

October 26th, 2010 / 11 a.m.

Barry Turner Chair, Green Budget Coalition

No, we haven't, in short, and you're right about the IJC. It was established many years ago, as you know, and sometimes it's caught between a rock and a hard place because it has to deal with priorities, policies, and practices of the United States.

In terms of protecting the Great Lakes, Mr. Szabo, the last federal budget allocated some money for endangered species. But whether this government, or any government, could convince the IJC to sit down with the Americans to toughen each other's mandate and have more of a stick, shall we say, to punish polluters or punish those who damage our waters on both sides of the border is probably something for the two foreign ministries to debate, not the Green Budget Coalition.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Okay.

I certainly did like the idea of the green bonds. I think that was helpful. The other aspect I had not thought about before is the ecoENERGY retrofit and providing some attention to low-income families, which I think we could presume will never happen simply because there aren't the resources to be able to afford it.

You're looking at about $1.25 billion for all of the retrofit. Have you thought it out? What mechanism would you propose in order to target that to low-income homeowners or dwellers?

11 a.m.

Director, Renewable Energy and Efficiency Policy, Pembina Institute

Tim Weis

In the past, although it doesn't exist anymore, there was a program for low-income homes. The best place to look for that is at Green Communities Canada. They had a program outlined there that targeted how you would actually roll that program out. The program actually did exist--I think in 2005--but it doesn't exist anymore.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

The last time I remember talking about retrofit and the credits that were available, the big discussion was on the requirement to have an energy audit both before and after to establish, first of all, that you qualified, and then that you actually did the work and it was successful. Is that really necessary?

11 a.m.

Director, Renewable Energy and Efficiency Policy, Pembina Institute

Tim Weis

Yes, absolutely. You need to make sure you're getting value for your money as a government. You need to make sure the actual work is done and done properly.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

The argument of the government has been that you're spending most of your money on the administration of the program. Do you agree?

11:05 a.m.

Director, Renewable Energy and Efficiency Policy, Pembina Institute

Tim Weis

No, I don't think that's where most of the money has gone. It has certainly been a real cost, but I think it's an absolutely necessary cost if you want to make sure the right work--the targeted work--is done and you're verifying what the results are. There's no point inputting money to a program if you're not going to monitor its results.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

The labelling of water equipment and other water-efficient fixtures and appliances makes so much sense. It's about $5 million over five years that you're suggesting, which doesn't seem like a major investment. I think Canadians are really comfortable with seeing a label on, say, furnaces and other things like that. This is an efficient—

11:05 a.m.

A voice

Or toilets.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Sorry?

But now, with the labelling we do have, people recognize that this program seems to work. Is $5 million over five years going to be enough to kick it off?

11:05 a.m.

Manager, Green Budget Coalition

Andrew Van Iterson

I have a sense that it would be, because about five times that is what it cost the United States. It's a pretty small-cost program.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Well, it is very small-cost, but I'm wondering whether it shouldn't be more in year one to launch it.

11:05 a.m.

Manager, Green Budget Coalition

Andrew Van Iterson

I don't think more of that money would need to be spent up front. We're asking for $5 million over five years.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Do you have any projections on what kind of water conservation benefits might be involved over the medium to long term?

11:05 a.m.

Manager, Green Budget Coalition

Andrew Van Iterson

We don't have the capacity to make those kinds of estimates.

I'm checking to see if we have we have that kind of information from the United States....yes, comparatively, the U.S. accomplishments report found that in a year it saved 36 billion gallons of water and saved customers $267 million. So roughly, if you take one tenth of that in Canada, it's 3.6 billion gallons of water and $26 million to consumers every year. Just like energy efficiency, it has an annual payback. That's pretty good for a $5 million investment.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Good for you. I think it's a great idea.

Thanks.

11:05 a.m.

Manager, Green Budget Coalition

Andrew Van Iterson

Let me mention, too, just to follow up, that we sent all of you a detailed package of our recommendations about a month ago, which all of you should have received, and we'll be sending a further copy in November.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Szabo.

Monsieur Paillé, s'il vous plaît.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Thank you.

I have some questions on housing for Ms. Ciufo. You deal with those challenges and have provided us with statistics regarding Toronto. I am the member for Hochelaga, and downtown Montreal, unfortunately, has a great many such clients. People living in the streets do not have a home. Consequently, 100% of homeless people do not have a roof over their head. Nevertheless, you did share with us some figures. You said that 13% of people in Canada lived in poor housing. There are people who need housing, and we haven't even mentioned children or newborns sleeping in drawers until another room can be found. That happens. Your brief reveals that 25.7% of lone-parent families, 18.2% of immigrants and 20.4% of aboriginal households live in housing that is inadequate for their needs. I would like to thank you for raising our awareness of that.

I have three or four questions for you. I do not think you mentioned this, but it is in your brief. Concerning the program in the U.K., you state that the country is implementing a program that will upgrade 7 million homes by 2020. What I find especially interesting is the pay-as-you-save financing mechanism. Could we not also use that more generally? Given the information you have, do people who renovate their homes incur debt? Then, do they repay that debt according to the savings generated from the related renovations? In some ways, that would be like an energy mortgage. Is that the principle?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Jody Ciufo

I believe it is in the U.K. I'm sorry that I didn't refer to this more in our presentation, but as you're aware, the U.K. is going through a very terrible situation right now with their public housing.

But I believe that this is indeed the idea of the program and that there have been some successful instances, especially in social housing, of putting money into renovations, financed against the future savings. But it's a long-term process.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

You rightly point out that the funding agreements for all households covered by the CMHC are expiring. There are many households in that situation in Montreal and Hochelaga. When the mortgage on a housing complex has been paid off, that is generally when the roof, windows and heating system have to be redone.

You have informed us of this, but what has been the government's response? Is the government aware of the situation? We get the impression that things will end on March 31, 2011. Can you give us an idea of the government's response to your submissions?

11:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Housing and Renewal Association

Jody Ciufo

We have not heard.... Well, in fact, as everyone else has read, there are no plans at this point to continue the funding of the economic stimulus funding. So that's $2 billion that we've used quite successfully. We have probably been successful at implementing about three quarters of that.

So we're nervous about that money, but even more so about the three programs that I spoke of: the affordable housing initiative, RRAP, and the homelessness strategy. We don't know for certain how that money will be used. We understand from Diane Finley that they will continue the funding, but we don't know how, and we don't know if the rules are going to change.

That is indeed why your question on whether everything will stop at 2011 is so important, especially in the long-term sense. The people on the ground who are delivering need to know. We are confident that the funding continues, but indeed, not how it will.

Secondly, on the last program, we have major concerns that the expiry of operating agreements will terminate as these agreements terminate. The problem is that it's so far in the future that I think we haven't done a good enough job of telling you what the effects are going to be when these agreements come to an end. We will have a lot of difficulty with people for housing.

Some will benefit. Some will be able to do well. We want to be able to see that model and apply it.