Finance Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Pacetti.

I'm going to take the next Conservative round.

I did want to follow up on that. It's interesting that Andrew Sniderman, who was a parliamentary intern in my office for a period, was one of the gentlemen who worked on the green bonds initiative. I'm sure you know Andrew quite well.

I want to follow up with Mr. Weis.

Welcome, Mr. Weis. It's nice to have another Edmontonian here.

I have a lot to say, but it's.... I find it a bit troublesome when we focus a lot of our environmental criticism on industry and companies and very little of our criticism on citizens or people themselves. We seem to disassociate our own actions as citizens in this country from what companies in fact are doing.

Just look at this room. Look at the amount of energy that's being consumed by us sitting here, and the number of lights on, and the carbon emissions as a result of that. Oil companies are not producing oil for the fun of it: they're producing oil because people are driving vehicles all around. Are we letting people off the hook to an extent in terms of what they're doing?

I'm going to go on to a further subject. I think the whole issue of urban sprawl is probably one of the biggest environmental issues we have, and frankly, it's in my own riding. My own riding grows 10% a year. I grew up in a bungalow in Edmonton, in Lansdowne, which is very close to where you live. Six of us lived in a bungalow. We shared rooms. It was just what you did at that time, in the 1970s, but now when I walk around my riding, I see homes that are six times the size of what they used to be. So even if we implement all the efficiency measures that we choose to, which we should, that is still a massive challenge that--

I'm sorry, Mr. Mulcair? My question is for Mr. Weis--

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Is this an issue that nobody is addressing, frankly, because it takes much more political will to tell citizens that they can't have homes that size or expand a city to that size because it causes more stress on public infrastructure? Nobody is really saying that in the environmental movement, frankly, to my mind, in the same way that we're focusing our criticisms on industries of all types.

[Tim Weis]

I don't think you can say that no one is suggesting those things aren't real issues. I think there definitely are other NGOs that deal with those issues. Most of those, particularly urban issues, are more local issues, and it's difficult for the federal government to get involved in urban sprawl, but I think the one tool that the government does have is to start putting a price on things we don't want.

If you don't want urban sprawl and you don't want these houses that are consuming huge amounts of energy, then putting a price on pollution or putting a price on carbon is one way to help discourage that. It's definitely one of the fiscal mechanisms at your disposal. Start allowing or encouraging people to make investments in other areas by making it unattractive to invest in things that pollute.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I'll give you one example. I know a lot of inventors across Canada and then there are companies like in ENMAX in Alberta. They are doing very simple things such as taking the waste energy from a furnace and utilizing it to heat a hot water tank. There are things like that.

Of the programs you've identified here, which programs are effective in encouraging that kind of investment and then adoption by people in the community?

[Tim Weis]

Maybe I'm not understanding the question. Are you referring to ENMAX's...?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, ENMAX is one company doing that. They're capturing a lot of waste heat and then utilizing it in the home so you don't have to use as much in the first place.

[Tim Weis]

Right. Well, I think that particular example, or the other programs.... ENMAX is a good example of a utility that is doing some pretty progressive things, but they've had to apply for some money to do some of those programs, and I think that's an example of how a green bonds type of initiative would enable companies to have a pool of capital. They would ultimately pay it back, but they could get their hands on it to take some of those initiatives.

I think that at that level, at a company level, a green bonds initiative would be a way to have that capital out there for companies to be able to invest.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I have about 30 seconds left. I would like your quick comment on the panel we've established to look at water with respect to the Athabasca River. We also have some new technologies coming out, including the Suncor dry tailings technology, part of which was developed at the Devon Research Centre in my area.

Have you seen improvements there? Are you positive about these two developments? Could you comment?

[Tim Weis]

I'm a renewable energy guy, so I can't really comment on oil sands. To the extent that I can, I will say that I think we have seen some improvements, but I think we're concerned about the pace of development compared to the pace of those improvements. We have seen things going.... There are some good things to mention, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Turner, do you want to comment briefly?

[Barry Turner]

Mr. Rajotte, I think you're suggesting a mild form of revolution in this country with respect to Canadian consumption of electricity and water. We are the greatest wasters of those two resources in the world. We're completely spoiled as a people. It's been too cheap.

Until recently, most houses in Calgary didn't even have water meters. That's astounding. Talk about waste. You wash your laneway with your garden hose. It's insanity. Put a price on it and people will stop doing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I just want to finish with Mr. Szabo.

Ms. Kean, I just want to mention that the Grey Cup is in Edmonton this year, November 28. If history is any guide, it will be minus 22 degrees, so socks would be welcome.

Mr. Szabo, a brief round, please.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

From the Canadian CED Network, one of their statements is that estimated cost of poverty to society in Canada is between $24 billion and $30 billion annually. This is a very large number and of course it's a significant challenge.

What it draws to my memory, though, Mr. Chairman, is that it sounds like about the same estimate of the underground economy in Canada and what it costs. Because of the stimulus program, I want to ask if anybody has any comments about one of these areas, about throwing a lot of money out there and getting a lot of people coming in and out of the business: it appears that one of the realities is that everybody gets two quotes for a job, one with GST and one without. That is the underground economy operating and we know it.

If people had an incentive to get the invoice with the GST charged, if they were eligible for a refundable tax credit of the GST paid, it would bring in businesses that have been working under the radar. I wonder if you think that something like that, or any effort whatsoever, should be addressed now on the underground economy so that we have the resources necessary for many of the programs that you've raised here.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Turner.

[Barry Turner]

Instead of a tax rebate, which is mechanical, administrative, and costly to manage, why not just lower their personal income taxes and give them more money in their pockets every year?

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

You need the invoice from that business that provided the service, with the GST, and then you can get the GST back. If you don't have that, you get a piece of paper that just disappears. You file the piece of paper with your tax return. The business won't do business with you if you insist. That's the key.

[Barry Turner]

I guess there's no magic bullet, is there?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Toye.

[Michael Toye]

I would just add that some of the base community economic and development and social economy activities are bringing people into the formal economy. At the very margins it's expanding cooperative basic small enterprise; it's expanding the formal economy from where informal underground economic activities may have been before. So that's another step in that direction, sir.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

That's a good point.

All right, it's just food for thought--the underground economy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I want to thank all of you for being with us here today and responding to our questions. If you have anything further for the committee to consider, please submit it to the clerk.

Colleagues, we do have a meeting this afternoon at 3:30 in Centre Block with the Governor of the Bank of Canada. We'll see you there.

Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned.