Evidence of meeting #105 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was havens.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Murphy  Director, Tax Justice Network
Arthur Cockfield  Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, Fulbright Visiting Chair in Policy Studies, University of Texas, As an Individual
Marion Wrobel  Vice-President, Policy and Operations, Canadian Bankers Association
Dennis Howlett  Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness
Darren Hannah  Director, Banking Operations, Canadian Bankers Association

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Okay. I think we need to be clear about legitimate overseas use and what is clearly unacceptable, which is evasion and the use of tax havens.

I'd like to head to Mr. Cockfield next.

We've had a lot of talk about estimating this tax gap, and we've had some estimates out there. I certainly remember Jeffrey Owens indicating that it's out there, it's large, and you can estimate it. To get into detailed analysis is time consuming and expensive, and we'd really be best to focus on dealing with the issue.

I think in your last appearance you testified that it would be problematic due to the fact that it's illegal and secret. Would you still agree that there might be some numbers out there—they're big—but that as a government we should be focused on the issue of our systems and processes to deal with it? Is that fair to say?

9:20 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Cockfield

Yes, it is very difficult to estimate the tax gap. There is a lot of ongoing research in this area, both in Canada and abroad, and there is an awful lot of research that looks at the use of tax havens for both tax evasion purposes and tax avoidance purposes.

I'm not sure I would say that it's not a useful exercise to try to estimate the tax gap. Here in the U.S. there is an annual exercise by both academics and by the government to try to come up with a tax gap estimate.

The problem is that the bulk of the missing revenues, I think most researchers would agree, would be as a result of domestic underground economic activity, particularly non-compliance in Canada with the GST: I'm a roofer and I only accept cash—hypothetically, of course—so I don't pay my GST. That's where I think a lot of the tax gap comes from.

Nevertheless, there could be more attention paid to this issue by Finance here in Canada.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you.

This will be a quick yes or no from everyone. A lot of people have suggested automatic exchange. Is there anyone who disagrees that is a useful way of moving forward?

Maybe we can start with Mr. Wrobel.

9:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Operations, Canadian Bankers Association

9:20 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Dennis Howlett

Oh, it's essential. That's the next step, as the witness from Finance said last week.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Mr. Murphy.

9:20 a.m.

Director, Tax Justice Network

Richard Murphy

I agree wholeheartedly. It's got to happen.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Mr. Cockfield.

9:20 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Cockfield

I agree, but it has to be carefully implemented.

Mr. Murphy, for instance, supported FATCA, the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, out of the U.S. in 2010. This is actually a huge controversy, of course, in Canada, and there is a side agreement under way between the Canadian government and the U.S. government. We have, for the first time in our history, an attempt by a foreign government to try to access unilaterally the personal financial information of Canadians.

This is a danger with the implementation of something like automatic exchanges in a haphazard way. There is no way that any foreign government should be able to access our personal information. That's just not the way to go.

So yes, I agree with automatic information exchange. I've written an article that also proposes a multilateral taxpayer bill of rights to protect confidential information that would actually help expedite the automatic information exchange process.

9:20 a.m.

Director, Tax Justice Network

Richard Murphy

May I come back on that for one moment?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Actually, I just have a quick follow-up for Mr. Cockfield.

Do you see that as complementary to your consolidated tax returns, automatic...?

9:20 a.m.

Prof. Arthur Cockfield

Yes. The consolidated return is directed more at the international tax avoidance problem. But it could all work together to more effectively protect the Canadian income tax base.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We're out of time on this round, Mr. Murphy. I'm sure we'll come back to the topic later in the session, though.

I'll go now to Mr. Brison, please, for your round.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for joining us today.

The Tax Justice Network's Henry report from back in July 2012 contrasts intermediary havens, like the Cayman Islands, with destination havens like the city of London or some other jurisdictions, including some in the U.S.

When it comes to dealing with international tax evasion, do destination havens require different policy tools than intermediary havens, and what would those tools be?

Mr. Murphy.

9:25 a.m.

Director, Tax Justice Network

Richard Murphy

Yes, there is obviously a difference of emphasis required. I think this understanding of the role of the tax haven as a conduit is incredibly important. What “offshore” means in this context is “not here”. It does not mean a geographical concept. It just means not here. What an offshore tax haven does is record transactions that take place somewhere else—in other words, not here.

Where do they actually take place? Look, there are $400 billion U.S. of assets in Jersey—a U.K. tax haven in all but name—at this point in time. There are only 80,000 people there. Those 80,000 people have not got use for over $5 million of assets each. It's impossible. Therefore, that money is somewhere else. That money is largely in London; it's a conduit to London.

What we require are that the major international financial centres like London, like New York, like Frankfurt, actually have to be much more suspicious about their sourcing of funding. What they're accepting is the assurance of an intermediary that this funding is from an acceptable source, when in fact they have to be much more rigorous about ensuring they really know the client involved.

Unfortunately, when it comes down it, London is at the epicentre of all of this. If you want to find a financial crisis in the world, I'm afraid you've only got to go to the city and there it is. The most-fined banks and the banks with the greatest reputations for money laundering are all based in London.

We've got a problem and we've got to clean up our act, and that requires better regulation and a change in attitude on the part of bankers, because I think it has been far too lax. It also requires us to think very hard about whether deduction of tax at source from these centres when payments are made to tax havens is required. It is on the OECD agenda this week to discuss the relevance between source and residence-based taxation.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Henry's report also suggested that non-compliance is contagious and that in fact increasingly middle-class citizens have access to vehicles and services to help facilitate international tax evasion. I'd be interested in any of the witnesses' views on the extent this is happening in Canada. Are we seeing the democratization, if you will, of international tax evasion through increasingly sophisticated but available services?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Who would like to address that?

Mr. Wrobel, do you want to address that?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Operations, Canadian Bankers Association

Marion Wrobel

Mr. Chairman, we have seen, I think, the democratization of financial advice and financial planning, of which tax planning is a legitimate part. I think the financial sector in Canada provides a wide range of services to Canadians to enable them to save efficiently, to have access to credit in an efficient manner, and to make the right decisions, all of which comply with the law in Canada and in other jurisdictions. So in terms of what is the difference between tax evasion and tax planning, again, we do not support tax evasion, but we do help our customers make sure they make good and efficient decisions.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I wasn't accusing the banks, Mr. Wrobel, but I appreciate the answer.

Would any of the other witnesses like to comment on the degree to which other providers of services, less discriminating than the Canadian banks, have maybe been providing advice on tax evasion to the middle class?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one minute.

Mr. Howlett, do you want to address this?

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Dennis Howlett

There has been a discussion of evasion and avoidance. One of the problems here is that as there is more and more aggressive use of tax planning and so on, it means that financial institutions start doing things that are legal but really shouldn't be, in my view. CRA continually needs to close loopholes and develop tax laws to try to curb some of the most egregious kinds of tax avoidance, which might be legal now. But really there are a lot of loopholes that need to be closed. I've talked to CRA staff about this, and they would agree that it's a constantly shifting stage and that they have to be continually updating regulations to try to curb some of the worst of the tax planning.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We're going to move next to Mr. Adler, please, for your round.

February 14th, 2013 / 9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

I'm third.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, sorry.

Ms. Glover, it's you.