Finance Committee on May 7th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We only have time for a brief response.

[Mark Perlman]

Unfortunately, it's a program question and I really don't want to venture there.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Okay, that's fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

M. Caron, s'il vous plaît.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will share my time with Mr. Rankin.

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today.

To return to another series of questions, we were talking about the fact that employees are currently being moved from one sector to another. Three weeks ago, Le Devoir reported that, since 2006, the CRA's Compliance Programs Branch has lost 221 auditors in total. Aggressive planning and international efforts may have increased since 2006, but we have still lost 221 auditors.

Can you confirm those figures?

Feel free to answer in English please.

[Mark Perlman]

I'm not aware of a loss of auditors. What we're looking at is the overall reporting compliance program activity, which is made up of support staff, specialists, auditors, directors, and managers. One of the things we have been doing in this area is focusing our attention on ensuring that the people who do the highest-risk files are there to do the highest-risk files. When we do our savings exercises, we are looking to consolidate internal services in areas such as reporting compliance. For example, one of the reductions was centralization of Internet services.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I understand that, but on April 17, Le Devoir wrote something that would translate into English as follows:

The number of “full-time equivalent” (FTE) public servants who carry out audits “in the Compliance Programs Branch” has gone from 9,498 in 2006 to 9,277 in 2013.

In addition, as my colleague mentioned, since 2008, losses have even been suffered in aggressive planning and tax heavens.

[Mark Perlman]

I'd like to state that those numbers are not all auditors. That's the audit program. The 9,200 number that you're quoting is actually the audit resources that are in the field, out of the 10,200 and some odd that we have in the whole reporting compliance program area.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Allow me to continue in the same vein.

When Budget 2013 was tabled, one of the government's priorities had to do with voluntary disclosure and denunciation.

We know that the government has decided to continue those efforts and move in that direction, but let's look at a specific example. The voluntary disclosure centre in Montreal was closed, and its responsibilities were transferred to Shawinigan, but without providing that office with any additional resources.

Were any other voluntary disclosure centres that could be used for denunciation closed in Canada? In addition, why are those centres being closed when the government wants to move in that direction?

[Mark Perlman]

There was work that happened with the voluntary disclosure program, but we had no intention of reducing that program. In fact, I believe we've been expanding the voluntary disclosure program.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

According to the reports, the Shawinigan office has not received any additional resources. It was given the responsibility, but no transfer has been made in terms of either employees or additional resources to help the office handle those new responsibilities.

[Mark Perlman]

I don't have any additional information for you.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Could you submit a written response to the clerk?

[Mark Perlman]

Yes, I can look into that and get back to you.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will yield the floor to Mr. Rankin.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have a little over a minute.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Perlman, in respect of the Auditor General's report last Tuesday, you talked about the $29 billion in undisputed tax debt that needs to be collected. In the end, the agency agrees with this central recommendation—they're looking for this permanent solution that will be implemented by October 2016. But your agency said it was “subject to resource and technical planning constraints”. You've just told us that the resource constraints are a $98 million net decrease in the main estimates. Do you expect to have the resources to do that?

[Mark Perlman]

That is actually one of our priority projects, as part of our strategic investment plan. So not only is the collections limitation program system being invested in, but we're also investing in the interim measures to ensure that the gap is—

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Given the time constraints here.... The Auditor General also says “the Agency has not made sufficient progress in improving its risk scoring processes for the collection of tax debts”; so doing fine on personal tax debts, but with corporations apparently it's cost-prohibitive, you say.

So you're just going after the low-hanging fruit of the personal ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Perlman, can you give a brief response on that, please, or Mr. Case?

[Richard Case]

Again, this is a priority of the agency. The agency has invested significant resources in updating its risk-scoring capability, and will continue to do so over the coming years. I think the Auditor General has indicated that we have made significant progress in doing that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just on the issue of some of the reductions, what would that represent as far as the total budget is concerned? What percentage would the reductions—

[Mark Perlman]

Are we talking about this year?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes.