Evidence of meeting #14 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Saul, when we talk about free trade agreements, it's usually mostly about economics. We rarely discuss the human and environmental aspects.
Do you have any comments about that?
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
We think there has been an effort over the past 25 years to try to integrate environmental and social conditions into free trade agreements. We think they have historically not gone nearly far enough and that there has been a tendency for those trade agreements to trump legitimate environmental and social concerns. The Climate Action Network is not categorically opposed to free trade agreements—I wouldn't say that at all.
At the same time, we are concerned that there are often provisions within them that end up trumping perfectly legitimate environmental ends. So it's really just a question of making sure there's a balance between having the option to protect legitimate environmental ends for ourselves and future generations and healthy communities, and encouraging a fully functioning and dynamic economy.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for attending today.
Mr. Saul, it will probably come as no surprise to you that I have some questions for you today, as I am from Fort McMurray and am interested in the oil sands. I've seen the town of Forth McMurray grow from 1,500 people to about 130,000 today, including some 70,000 or 80,000 workers, some 35,000 of whom live in camps and work around the region, with some 120,000 jobs in Canada been created directly as a result, and about 250,000 by 2025. It's very important to me because it's important for the economy. Canada is in the number one position today, and I think most of that is because of the oil sands over the last few years—certainly based upon what the rest of our sectors have done.
I'm curious about the subsidies you talk about, because if I understand this issue correctly—and here I'm only talking about oil companies--the only subsidy that I'm aware of is the one that was brought in by the Liberal government in 1997-98, the subsidy called the accelerated capital cost allowance. That's the only subsidy I'm aware of. But my understanding of that particular subsidy, based on my background, is that it is to be phased out by 2014-15, as a result of the legislation our government brought in. In fact, that accelerated capital cost allowance only defers taxes, or the tax break the companies have, for some years. It allows them to depreciate more quickly so they can have more money to invest today so that they get better returns more quickly long term.
Is that fair to say, or is there some subsidy I'm not aware of?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
It sounded like that was more than one question. I think it's fair to say that measures were taken in 2007 and 2011 to reduce some fossil fuel subsidies. I think it's also fair to say that if you look at the research that the International Institute for Sustainable Development did last year, an exhaustive analysis done out of their Geneva office—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I don't have a lot of time, sir. I'm just asking what other subsidies there are. Is there another subsidy that I'm not aware of specifically? Could you refer me to that.
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
Finance Canada, in a memo to Minister Flaherty about 18 months ago, along with the IISD study, identified the Canadian exploration expense, the Canadian development expense and, to a lesser degree, flowthrough shares, and tax depreciation rates for oil sands leases, and the accelerated capital cost allowance for the mining sector.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I understand. So, in essence, 99% of what you're talking about is either pro-development or pro-exploration, measures that are obviously necessary, as most countries have them, and the accelerated capital cost allowance.
That was my question, because I kept hearing this. I've looked on your website a number of times. I was halfway through a master's in law and environmental law in Australia, but I ran out of money and I was very interested to see what your background was in relation to that.
I'm sure you're also aware that oil sand company profits were down 90% in 2009; that there's about $6 billion to $8 billion in revenue that comes into the federal and provincial government from these companies; and that 27% of the TSX consists of oil sands companies. In fact, 8% of the GDP of the country is dependent on oil sands. You are aware of that, I'm sure.
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
I'm aware that the oil sands are a significant factor in our economy. I'm also aware that if we had a billion dollars to spend to meet the needs of Canadians, the oil companies may not be the neediest of those Canadians.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Your organization is funded by members and member organizations. How many members—not member organizations, and not the accumulation of the member organizations—does your organization have directly?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
Well, we're essentially a trade association among member organizations.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
No, just your members themselves, not your trade organizations.
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
Well, that's like asking the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers how many members they have. They would answer that in terms--
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
They would answer that in terms of the number of companies that are part of their association. So when we're asked who are members are, we answer it in terms of the members.
How many members does the United Church of Canada have? How many members does the Assembly of First Nations have?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
No, that's not what I'm asking. To be fair to me, this is my time, it's not your time.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
We have 75 member organizations. Our members are counted as organizations.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Have you ever been to Fort McMurray or the oil sands?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
I personally have not been to Fort McMurray.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Have you ever seen the reclamation of pond number one, which is the pond that your organization talked endlessly about, saying it could never be reclaimed? It has been reclaimed; I have seen it. I invite you up there, sir, to see it, and I would take you there personally. It's an amazing thing.
I don't have a lot of time left.
