Finance Committee on May 17th, 2012

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Perhaps Ms. Vermaeten could add something on this point?

[Annette Vermaeten]

According to the chief actuary, in 2030 there will be 9.4 million beneficiaries for the OAS program. This is according to the ninth actuarial report.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

And for the actual program, not for future programs.

[Dominique La Salle]

That's right.

[Annette Vermaeten]

For the actual program.

[Dominique La Salle]

Currently.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a little bit of a struggle here, because we hear about the comparisons you've done, the study of the relationship between the costs and GDP, but we can't get to the place of understanding what the savings or costs are relative to this change.

Part of what we try to make our decisions on, at least on this side of the table, are the actual figures and the dollars and cents involved. Clearly, this is being approached from the standpoint of the government that they feel there's a need to protect this program by making this change, and thus they will save a certain amount of money.

Our job, on the other hand, is to look at the proposed amount of money they're saving and ask ourselves if it is valid, is it real, does it match what we're hearing elsewhere? We're pretty well handcuffed here if we can't get someone to tell us what those savings are. I'm not asking you this as a question; it's a comment. Somebody someplace visibly told you not to give this committee that information. That's very difficult to accept here.

With all due respect to yourself, I think you've conducted yourself very well here, and I don't mind saying that publicly. You've been put in a very untenable position in this, but it is very troubling.

We're talking about making a change for those two years. Anybody on Ontario disability when they reached age 65 would have gone to more money than they had a month, and now they'll have to wait an extra two years. The finance minister has said he'll cover the cost for the provinces, but these people will get less money than they would have done with the transition.

If you have somebody who is 59 years of age and has lost their job and can't get back to work and are on employment insurance and they run out of that and go onto welfare, in Ontario the municipality pays that. There are two years there where they would have gone from social assistance to a little bit better with OAS and GIS, if that's all they have in this world, but now they've got to wait two years.

When we talk about the cost to society, that's what we're talking about. The fact is that this offloading is more than offloading costs to the provinces, this has direct impact on the lives of those people. It puts us in an untenable position as well when we can't get the real figures. I guess you can appreciate the frustration on this side. We understand yours, sir.

I'll offer it one more time. You can't give us the savings cost of the transfer of the cost of this to the provinces--is that correct?

[Bruno Rodrigue]

As I said, the Minister of Finance has already answered these questions.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's fine.

[Bruno Rodrigue]

I do have some information for you, though, on how it might affect low-income people.

The budget plan was clear that the government will ensure that those who are benefiting from certain federal programs that provide income support benefits that are aligned with OAS, that the....

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think I get the point of where you're trying to go. Let me jump in here for a second.

[Bruno Rodrigue]

Different income support programs will be aligned to make sure that nobody is falling into an income gap.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I've got an important question that's coming out of that. You're saying that the persons on Ontario disability.... What I'm reading from what you're saying is that the government will supply the difference between what they get on Ontario disability—

[Bruno Rodrigue]

No, sorry.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Oh, they won't.

[Bruno Rodrigue]

No, I'm sorry. What I'm saying is that for federal programs over which the federal government has control, the intention is to address the income gap.

With respect to CPP beneficiaries of disability and survivor benefits, the government has announced—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Has decided to do something.

[Bruno Rodrigue]

Yes, will negotiate with provinces to ensure that the income gap is addressed.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But that's going to the provinces, not the individuals.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No, I understand that. I'm saying that the ones in the province who are on ODSP, Ontario disability, will not be getting more money until they're 67. That's the bottom line for them. Somebody on social assistance will not get it until they're 67.

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

We'll go to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

It's coming into play in 19 years, so it's going to affect people who are currently 48. Correct? It's going to extend it. It's going to be people—

[Annette Vermaeten]

It is starting at age 50.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay. For people who are paying taxes today, we have a choice. I guess we could up the taxes they would pay today to pay for the program in 19 years. Is that the only way?