Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division , Department of Finance
Gilles Moreau  Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety
Jonathan Roy  Senior Policy Analyst, Social Policy, Health, Justice, Culture, Department of Finance
Daniel MacDonald  Chief, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, CHT/CST and Northern Policy, Department of Finance
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Gillis  Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization; Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Samuel Godefroy  Director General, Food Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Alwyn Child  Director General, Program Development and Guidance Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Annette Nicholson  Secretary and General Counsel, International Development Research Centre (IDRC)
Lenore Duff  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Nathalie Martel  Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance
Annette Vermaeten  Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Eileen Boyd  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office
Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Lynn Tassé  Director, Canada Gazette, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Patricia Brady  Director, Investment, Insolvency, Competition and Corporate Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Andy Lalonde  Manager, Preclearance, Canada Border Services Agency, Department of Public Safety
Lynn Hemmings  Senior Chief, Payments, Payments and Pensions, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Actually, it's just to discuss this issue—

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I've actually frozen the time. So this is just a discussion on why it's here.

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Do you want to comment on why it's here?

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Yes, that's correct.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I had Mr. Jean, and then Monsieur Caron.

Mr. Jean, on this point.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I have two points, Mr. Chair.

First, I was going to make the same comment that Ms. Glover made. It is a financial issue, not a quality of work issue. That's the first.

Second, Mr. Chair, I have to be clear that I don't think there's any better fisherman, anywhere in Ottawa, than I am.

5:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Shocking!

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Since her leader, Mr. Mulcair, is coming up to Fort McMurray in the near future, I'd like to invite him on a fishing trip up the Clearwater River to fish first-hand and to see the skill and agility with which I catch fish. I promise, Mr. Chair, they won't be disappointed. And Ms. Nash is invited as well.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, I appreciate that. I'm sure there's no exaggeration whatsoever in your answer.

Monsieur Caron, s'il vous plaît.

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

We should ask him about the size of the fish he's catching.

It is appropriate to refer only division 18 to the committee because, according to the witnesses, that section is intrinsically linked to the other proposed provisions for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. If the subcommittee studies the provisions respecting that department and if this measure is related to them, I do not see how we could prevent it from doing so. The subcommittee is currently discussing part 3. So it is appropriate to refer only section 18 to the subcommittee so that it can examine it together with all the measures proposed for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I'm going to have to leave that as a matter of debate. The reality to me, as chair, is that the motion passed by this committee stated that part 3 should go the subcommittee. That's why they're dealing with part 3. As to why it's in here, my sense is that it's about fish allocation for financing purposes. That's why it's in part 4. But we'll have to leave that as a matter of debate.

I froze Ms. Nash's time. She has four minutes. Then I'm going to go to Ms. McLeod.

5:55 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I have no further questions, but I do want to comment.

It is talking about fish allocation and the appropriate authority to set aside a certain quantity of fish, fishing gear, and equipment that may be allocated for the purpose of financing scientific and fisheries management activities.

I just don't believe the finance committee has the appropriate expertise to deal with fish allocation. I have no questions because I really do believe this should be with the subcommittee. Actually, it should be with the fisheries committee, but our critic is going to be in the subcommittee.

6 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

I'll go to Ms. McLeod, please.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What I'd really like is an example from before the court of appeal's decision of what might have happened in using an allocation to finance some activities. Can you give me a specific example?

May 17th, 2012 / 6 p.m.

David Gillis Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Yes, I can. There are quite a few arrangements that we had in place before the court action in 2006. One involved a fishery for which the department had a science program that was able, using our own resources, to take us a certain distance in terms of understanding the resource. We worked with the industry to involve them in that process. They asked us whether we could do further work on that resource to provide more clarity, less uncertainty, about the status of the resource. We weren't able, with the existing allocations, to do that, so we began to discuss an arrangement whereby we would have a joint project between the industry and Department of Fisheries science inn which we would cooperate to bring additional activities for more clarity.

The industry agreed to finance a part of that. They requested that we do so by setting aside a portion of their allocation, which could be used, with their engagement, to offset the costs that fishermen would incur in doing the work on the water, which would generate the information that we would then assess and use to provide more advice.

That was done, and it carried on for several years prior to the court case's indication that the minister did not in fact have the authority to allocate fish for that purpose.

That's an example. There are many others.

6 p.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you. That's all.

6 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Brison, please.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much for joining us today.

Some critics are saying that the federal government is circumventing the 1871 agreement that made B.C. a province, in which the federal government agreed to provide B.C. with services, including the protection and encouragement of fisheries.

How do you respond to that?

6 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

I think we have to keep in mind that the regular appropriation comes to the department and, among many other activities, we use it for the activities that go to the purpose you speak of.

There always seems, however, in my experience to be an additional amount of information that the resource users would like to have. It may help them make their business cases; it may help them make their decisions for investment in the fishery. This creates an opportunity for us to have a joint project to meet our common needs, the needs we would share between the government and the industry, and to do more work than we can do with our regular allocations.

We have quite a portfolio of these types of collaborative projects. We have had several hundred in the past. I don't have a current count right now. In a lot of those cases, fish was a part of the mechanism by which the industry was able to bring their part.

6 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

In order to finance your scientific and fisheries management activities, I wonder whether the federal government should be doing this more out DFO's budget, not by taking fish quota or gear or equipment away from fishers to finance these activities. Are you putting more responsibility for science on the backs of fishers themselves. Is that part of this?

6 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

I think I would describe it as creating an opportunity, maybe a better opportunity than we currently have, to enter into a joint project agreement with fishermen through an organization, maybe, or a company. It's always something that's done with their engagement and obviously their agreement. This would need to be done within the context of that joint project, so I'm not sure that we're pushing anything onto them.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

In terms of the control and direction of science research, is there a risk to the credibility of the science and research if there's a devolution of it to fishers? Look at what happened off the coast of Atlantic Canada with the cod fishery when science was ignored, some would say, during that period. Is there not a risk of repeating some of the same mistakes?

6:05 p.m.

Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

David Gillis

All of the work that we would do, and all of the work that we do now collaboratively with the industry, is brought into the department and is put through our existing science peer-review program. In fact this program, which is the basis from which we provide our advice to the minister, regularly brings in and meshes together our own research, research that we might do collaboratively, and any other research that's relevant, which might even be done independently. In an open and transparent manner, it allows us to crunch that and—

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

As it is now, before this change, approximately what percentage of the research that—