Finance Committee on May 17th, 2012

Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures

MPs speaking

James Rajotte
Guy Caron
Paul Dewar
Scott Brison
Cathy McLeod
Shelly Glover
Hoang Mai
Brian Jean
Peggy Nash
Wayne Marston
Randy Hoback

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division , Department of Finance
Gilles Moreau  Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety
Jonathan Roy  Senior Policy Analyst, Social Policy, Health, Justice, Culture, Department of Finance
Daniel MacDonald  Chief, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, CHT/CST and Northern Policy, Department of Finance
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Gillis  Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization; Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Samuel Godefroy  Director General, Food Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Alwyn Child  Director General, Program Development and Guidance Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Annette Nicholson  Secretary and General Counsel, International Development Research Centre (IDRC)
Lenore Duff  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Nathalie Martel  Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance
Annette Vermaeten  Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Eileen Boyd  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office
Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Lynn Tassé  Director, Canada Gazette, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Patricia Brady  Director, Investment, Insolvency, Competition and Corporate Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Andy Lalonde  Manager, Preclearance, Canada Border Services Agency, Department of Public Safety
Lynn Hemmings  Senior Chief, Payments, Payments and Pensions, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you, Chair.

I want to say from one police officer to another, thank you very much for your service to our country. It's been a tough couple of years. I just want you to know how much the government—and I'm sure members across the way would echo this—appreciates all the work that you do to protect our interest.

Going back to the health care situation, I just want to make sure I understand it properly, because I too have heard from a number of police officers who think this is a good way to move forward. And I've also heard from people in municipalities that have contracting through the RCMP who believe this is a cost-saving measure for them.

To be clear, the provinces and the territories currently are receiving federal transfers, from the federal government, based on total population figures that include RCMP members already. Is that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

Yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

When we look at RCMP members who are treated at a provincial level, because they are considered non-residential, they are sometimes actually charged 200% more as a premium. It's as if, for example, Americans were to come to Canada and get health care services and they're actually charged a premium for not being resident. Is that correct? It's higher than the average cost. Is that correct?

May 17th, 2012 / 3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Right. So in those cases, I know from our contract policing partners that all of those expensive costs, those premium costs, actually get charged to them. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

Yes. It's at a percentage based on the contract that we have. It's 70% with provinces, 90% with municipalities. With other municipalities it may be 100%.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Which is where we demonstrate, clearly, that the municipalities that have contracts with the RCMP—of course they have partnerships with the provinces—see this as a way to save money. They shouldn't be paying 200% or 150% when they already, if you were resident, would just be paying the same basic amount as any other Canadian.

I just want to make sure that I've understood it, because I see that's about $15 million in savings to those contract policing partners, or to the provinces, let's say. And then, of course, there would be some savings for the federal government as well, where RCMP members aren't contracted out but are simply serving as our national police force, right? And that's a $25 million savings.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

That's part of it, yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Okay.

The last point I want to make sure I have right is that RCMP members are actually being charged provincial tax premiums as part of their personal income tax for health care programs that they don't benefit from as well. Is that right?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

They don't personally benefit from them. That's right.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

So implementing these changes would obviously put them right with the rest of Canada?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

So this is a win-win all the way around.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

That's for you to say.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

Monsieur Mai.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for being here with us today, gentlemen.

I have a question for you.

We are talking about $25 million in savings for the RCMP and another $15 million in savings. You also said that the provinces had requested this. Will the provinces definitely be saving money, or will they be facing increased costs?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

In health?

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

In total, there will be an increase because the federal party will no longer be involved.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

All right.

Do we have an idea of the cost that will be transferred from the federal to the provincial level?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

We're talking about a similar cost of approximately $15 million.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

So it's $15 million more for the provinces.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety

Gilles Moreau

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

You say the provinces agree with that.

Do you know whether there has been an agreement with the federal government since it is saving $25 million or the equivalent? Will it refund $15 million to the provinces?