Finance Committee on June 5th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Brison, Mr. Marston, and then Ms. Glover.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I would add that this is a deeply irresponsible measure. It significantly reduces democratic oversight over Canada's spy agency.

To further quote Paul Kennedy—again, former chief legal counsel to CSIS and one of the foremost experts on security matters in Canada—he refers to this change as “sheer insanity”.

So we are opposed to these changes.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My other portfolio I have responsibility for in the official opposition is that of human rights critic. Just this last week, we had a report released by the United Nations committee on torture. Within that report, they were highly critical of the situation of CSIS involved with the Omar Khadr case in Guantanamo.

Now, those of us who are old enough remember what was termed by the media—I want to stress this, that it was by the media—as the RCMP “dirty tricks squad” years ago, which was disbanded. And then you go back to Mr. Kennedy's assertion.

The RCMP and the police officers of our country for the most part are highly credible, responsible individuals, but there are people who make mistakes. When CSIS was formed, the inspector general was put into place for exactly the purpose of protecting Canadians and Canadians' rights. CSIS, in the case of Omar Khadr's interrogation when he was 16 years old in Guantanamo, created a highly questionable response. Of course, as I said, the United Nations has responded more recently to that.

Having oversight is crucial to protecting the rights of Canadians. Yes, there are situations where some of the information should not be made public. That's a reality of the work that CSIS does. On the other hand, that's all the more reason to have that person who is giving the kind of support to the minister that is necessary to guarantee the rights of every Canadian.

So I'm speaking strongly against this change on the basis of the potential for further problems in regard to the rights of Canadian citizens.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Glover, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First off, I want to address the comments made by Ms. Nash about the minister.

The minister is fully supportive of this provision in the BIA, so much so that I dispute wholeheartedly any comments made by Ms. Nash about the minister relying on the inspector general as his eyes and ears. Of course the minister has at his disposal a number of very professional and very well-trained people and agencies who provide him with information on an ongoing basis.

Now, the key functions of CSIS are to provide a certificate to the Minister of Public Safety each year attesting to the satisfaction with the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service's report to the minister, and it conducts self-initiated reviews of CSIS activities. Okay. So all this legislation is doing is transferring that responsibility to SIRC, who already conduct self-initiated reviews of CSIS activities. Further, they also do investigations of complaints, which means they're actually doing more, but they're duplicating work that is being done in CSIS.

Through you, Chair, to the witnesses, have I encapsulated that duplication appropriately? And if not, would you please further explain the duplication that's going on presently?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Hirsch.

[Darryl Hirsch, Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety]

I would say that's a good characterization of the duplication.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

Having said all of that, SIRC is in fact an arm's-length body, which provides more transparency?

[Darryl Hirsch]

That's correct.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Furthermore, there is a savings. With the elimination of duplication, there is a savings, which of course was a priority for this government to make sure that we achieve.

Having said all of that, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever not to be proceeding with this legislation. I would hopefully suggest to the opposition members that they might reconsider their position, because it makes the best of sense. This is a broader organization, SIRC. It has a bigger mandate. It's arm's-length. There's more transparency. They're already doing this work. It's a win-win-win.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

Mr. Brison, please.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have a simple question for the witnesses. Who's the permanent head of SIRC at this time?

[Darryl Hirsch]

The chair has resigned, so one of the members is acting. I don't recall his name off the top of my head. The government is in the process of searching for a replacement for that person.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

At a time when we don't have a permanent head of SIRC, we are making these changes that will reduce oversight?

[Darryl Hirsch]

Along with the chair and the four committee members, there is a permanent bureaucratic staff. It's headed by an executive director, who is in the position now. She has almost forty years of experience, including many years within the security and intelligence community. She is supported by a staff of about 16 and they also have varying degrees of experience within the security and intelligence community.

The work is ongoing. I would characterize this as normal. A person has resigned. We need to fill the position and that job search is ongoing, but in the interim the review of CSIS activities is continuing.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

It will be filled at some point.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go back to Ms. Glover, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I have a quick question for the witnesses. Who is the inspector general?

[Darryl Hirsch]

The inspector general has resigned. We have an acting member replacing her at this time.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Pretty equal.

As a last question, who is the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada? No, interim. Sorry, never mind. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. We go back to Mr. Brison.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I assume, based on Ms. Glover's logic, that the government also intends to remove the position of the head of SIRC as well. To follow the logical corollary of her argument, the government.... We have an interim position in terms of inspector general, so I assume that will be following as future government legislation. It's logical.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, colleagues.

Mr. Brison, you can put your name forward for the head of SIRC.

(Clauses 378 to 387 inclusive agreed to on division)

Thank you very much.

I want to thank our officials for being here this evening.

We will now go to the Currency Act, which is division 16, clauses 388 to 389.

Mr. Martin, speaking to division 16, the Currency Act, to dispense with the penny.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, I would welcome that opportunity, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

I am here sort of like going to the funeral for somebody you don't like just to make sure they're actually dead.