Evidence of meeting #10 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Spiro  Dentons Canada LLP, As an Individual
Yvon Bolduc  Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Jack Mintz  Director and Palmer Chair in Public Policy, School of Public Policy, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Michael Colborne  Partner, Thorsteinssons LLP
Gabriel Hayos  Vice-President, Taxation, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada
Joyce Reynolds  Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association
François-William Simard  Director, Strategy and Economic Affairs, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec
Thomas Hayes  President and Chief Executive Officer, GrowthWorks Atlantic Ltd.
Chris Arsenault  President, iNovia Capital Inc.
John Bergenske  Executive Director, Wildsight
Brenda Baxter  Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Ted Cook  Senior Legislative Chief, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Armine Yalnizyan  Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Monique Moreau  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Michelle Gauthier  Vice-President, Public Policy and Community Engagement, Imagine Canada
Marie-Hélène Arruda  Coordinator, Mouvement autonome et solidaire des sans-emploi (réseau québécois)

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call to order meeting number ten of the Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 29, 2013, we are continuing our study of Bill C-4, A second act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 21, 2013 and other measures.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here with us in Ottawa, as well as Calgary and Toronto.

Colleagues, we have about five hours of hearings ahead of us, so I look forward to spending this half day with you.

First of all, I want to thank Mr. David Spiro for being with us here today.

We also have with us Mr. Yvon Bolduc, from the Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec.

Welcome, sir.

From Calgary, we have Professor Jack Mintz from the School of Public Policy—welcome, Mr. Mintz—and by video conference from Toronto, we have Mr. Michael Colborne, partner at Thorsteinssons. Also from Toronto, we have Mr. Gabriel Hayos, vice-president, taxation, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada.

Welcome to all of you.

Gentlemen, you have five minutes maximum for your opening statements and then we'll have questions from members.

We'll begin with Mr. Spiro, please.

3:30 p.m.

David Spiro Dentons Canada LLP, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will preface my comments by noting that I'm here as an individual. I'm not here as a representative of my firm or of any of my clients. Accordingly, my comments and answers to questions will reflect my own personal views only.

By way of background, I've practised in the field of tax law for nearly 25 years. For 13 of those years, I practised with the Department of Justice in Toronto. Both before and after my time with the federal government, I've represented taxpayers and tax controversies and litigation with various tax authorities, including the Canada Revenue Agency.

Having seen the world from both sides, then, I'd like to offer a bird's-eye view of certain amendments to the Income Tax Act in Bill C-4, particularly those that are commonly referred to as loophole-closing provisions. In general terms, those provisions aim to preserve Canada's broad tax base so that our low corporate tax rates can be maintained. If our tax base is compromised in any significant way, new taxes will have to be imposed or rates of existing taxes will have to rise in order to make up the difference.

In today's competitive global marketplace, it's more important than ever for Canada to maintain its corporate tax rates at the lowest possible level to enhance job creation and investment in Canada. Of equal importance is the integrity and perceived integrity of our tax system. Canadians must be confident that all taxpayers are subject to the same set of rules. When some taxpayers take advantage of benefits that were never intended for them, other taxpayers lose confidence that the system is, indeed, just, equitable, and fair.

The loophole-closing provisions in Bill C-4 include measures aimed at precluding the enjoyment of unintended benefits from the use of, or avoidance of, various provisions of the Income Tax Act. For example, Bill C-4 aims at ending the use of leveraged life insurance arrangements by investors who took advantage of multiple tax benefits offered by various provisions of the Income Tax Act that were never intended to be used together.

Other provisions of Bill C-4 deal with character conversion transactions. Through the use of derivative forward contracts, investors could effectively convert ordinary income into capital gains, only one half of which would be subject to tax. Bill C-4 proposes to put all investors on a level playing field, so that ordinary income cannot be converted into capital gains through the use of derivative forward contracts.

Other provisions of Bill C-4 deal with synthetic disposition arrangements. Because the Income Tax Act is generally based on the legal attributes of transactions, one could avoid realizing a capital gain and thereby defer tax by transferring all, or substantially all, of the risk of loss and opportunity for gain in respect to a property, while at the same time retaining bare legal ownership of that property. Until there's a disposition in law, no capital gain will have been realized. From an economic point of view, though, the taxpayer has effectively disposed of that property. In those circumstances, Bill C-4 would deem a disposition to have occurred and a capital gain to have been realized as soon as the risk of loss and opportunity for gain is eliminated.

To prevent profitable corporations from artificially reducing taxable income by purchasing losses from other companies, the Income Tax Act restricts the use of losses where one corporation acquires legal control of another. In law, control is acquired when one corporation acquires more than 50% of the voting shares of the other. Bill C-4 proposes to treat the acquisition of economic control of a corporation in the same way as the acquisition of legal control for purposes of these rules. So when a corporation acquires more than 75% of the economic value of another company, the acquisition of control rules would be triggered, thereby precluding the acquiring corporation from using the losses of the other. Bill C-4 also proposes to extend the same acquisition of control rules to trusts. For trusts, the rules would be triggered when a majority interest in the trust is acquired.

Finally, there is an incentive for non-residents to fund their Canadian subsidiaries with as much debt as possible, as interest is deductible in computing taxable income in Canada. To preclude the undue extraction of profits from Canada, the Income Tax Act has thin capitalization rules that require that a certain debt-to-equity ratio be maintained by Canadian subsidiaries owned by non-residents. Bill C-4proposes to extend those thin capitalization rules to trusts resident in Canada, as well as non-resident trusts and branches of non-resident corporations.

Additional fine tuning to these rules may be required going forward, to the extent that any of these amendments affect transactions that are not offensive from a policy point of view. The Canadian Bar Association and the Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada have a joint committee that works closely with the Department of Finance to reduce the extent of any unintended consequences that arise from such changes.

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Spiro.

Mr. Bolduc, you have the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Yvon Bolduc Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for giving us the opportunity to come speak to you about the consequences of eliminating the tax credit for labour-sponsored funds and about the offer we have made to the government.

First, I would like to give you a few figures about the Fonds de solidarité FTQ. The fund has more than 615,000 shareholders, or nearly 15% of the Quebec workforce, principally from the middle class, people who are unionized and non-unionized. The proportion of unionized workers to non-unionized workers is around 50-50. 205,000 of our shareholders had never contributed to an RRSP before becoming shareholders of the fund. The FTQ also has 2,395 partner companies, principally SMEs in all the regions of Quebec, and it has invested $5.5 billion over the last 10 years, of which $2.2 billion were invested in venture capital.

Now I would like to explain first the consequences of the measure, and also to talk to you about the offer we have made to the federal government. As concerns the consequences of the measure, you have to understand there are three groups that will lose out: Quebeckers with savings, the Quebec economy, and finally, the entire venture capital industry in Canada.

Quebeckers with savings will lose a tax incentive that allows hundreds of thousands of Quebeckers to better prepare for retirement. In reality, these peoples' taxes will increase. Furthermore, the Quebec economy will lose out because eliminating the tax credit will reduce our cash inflows, which will immediately and significantly reduce our ability to invest in the economy. Finally, venture capital in Canada will also be affected. With less money to invest, there will be no choice but to significantly reduce investments in venture capital, and consequently, our fundamental role as a fund.

I will conclude my presentation by explaining the offer that we have made to the federal government.

Our proposal was as follows. In return for maintaining a tax credit and a review of the program in 2018, labour-sponsored funds in Quebec would firstly reduce the immediate cost for the government by 30%. This decrease could come from a cap on our cash inflows and, if necessary, a reduction in the rate of the tax credit.

Secondly, we would invest two dollars in venture capital for every dollar of tax credit for the duration of the venture capital action plan. More specifically, we proposed to the federal government to invest $400 million in private funds outside of Quebec and $550 million in private funds in Quebec—funds that would have the opportunity to invest across Canada.

Finally, we would also invest directly $1 billion in venture capital businesses in Quebec.

Labour-sponsored funds in Quebec have offered the federal government a total of $2 billion in venture capital, in exchange for reducing the tax burden and reassessing the situation based on the program's 2018 results.

In conclusion, I would repeat that if the bill is adopted in its current form, our cash inflows will be reduced by around $4.5 billion over 10 years, which means $4.5 billion less in retirement savings for Quebeckers. It also means there will be around $3 billion less to support SMEs or private funds over the next 10 years.

I respectfully entreat the committee to remove all provisions dealing with this tax credit from Bill C-4, and to urge the government to consider the offer of the Quebec labour-sponsored funds. At the very least, your committee could amend the bill to reflect the offer we have made to the government.

Thank you for your time. I am ready to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Bolduc, for your presentation.

Next we will go to Mr. Mintz in Calgary.

You have five minutes to make your presentation, please.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Jack Mintz Director and Palmer Chair in Public Policy, School of Public Policy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. It's my pleasure to appear before the committee.

As you know, tax reform has been a topic near and dear to my heart, especially since I chaired the commission for Paul Martin, the Technical Committee on Business Taxation, back in 1998. We argued very strongly that it's very important to have a business tax structure that has internationally competitive rates but also neutrality, where we have a level playing field amongst different types of business activities to make sure we get a proper allocation of capital resources in the economy. I would echo many of the things that David Spiro said.

I wanted to point that out because I feel there were a number of changes made since 1998 that did a lot to bring rates down, but I think the governments could have done better in terms of achieving more neutrality. For quite some time I have also felt that the labour-sponsored venture capital corporation credit that has been in existence needed to get changed as well, as it had distorted venture capital markets.

I want to focus on this particular credit and start with some empirical observations that have been made by a number of papers. In fact, one of them is our own, which I'll show the committee, and it's one you can get off our website. It was by Jeffrey MacIntosh, entitled “Tantalus Unbound: Government Policy and Innovation in Canada”. I recommend that the committee look at this paper because it provides a lot of interesting observations that are quite relevant to today's subject. This paper was peer-reviewed, and I think it expresses a lot of the state of economic knowledge as well as legal knowledge with respect to many policies that we use for innovation, including the labour-sponsored venture capital corporate credit.

To begin with some observations, this is one I found in an article I wrote. It seems that Canadian venture capital returns have been particularly low. In particular, this has been true of the LSVC credit. For example, in the past decade the average rate of return has been 3% per year, compared to the United States which has been 20% rate of return to venture capital. We've had a policy in place that hasn't worked very well. In fact, it's not surprising that many Canadian pension funds, when they do decide to invest in venture capital, often go to the U.S. where the rates of return are far better than what you find in Canada.

As Jeffrey MacIntosh notes, one of the reasons is the very small scale of many of the labour-sponsored venture capital credit firms. As a result, they have had very poor returns because of that low return. But even large ones have not done particularly well.

The Quebec Solidarity Fund, for example, as Jeffrey notes, over a 20-year period has had half the rate of return as treasury bills. Now if you're investing in more risk, you would expect a higher rate of return not a lower rate of return. This is actually a rather surprising result. In fact, in 2011, $8.8 billion had been invested in solidarity funds. However, only 4.9% had been what's called development capital assets, where you might find some investment in venture capital.

As Jeffrey MacIntosh notes, most of this capital has been funded in bonds, not very much in equity, of private companies. In fact, only 5% of the total solidarity funds have been invested as what you might think of as venture capital, according to Jeffrey MacIntosh in this paper that we published.

I think that is a very important result because it shows that the program has not worked as ideally as it should.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Mintz, you have about one minute remaining.

3:45 p.m.

Director and Palmer Chair in Public Policy, School of Public Policy, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Dr. Jack Mintz

Yes.

I'll very quickly say why there are three reasons for the problems of this credit, and why it should be abolished.

First of all, there's been a separation of control and ownership in the LSV and poor governance, and MacIntosh's paper goes into some detailed discussion of that. But, effectively, there has been a divorcing of the ownership and control of the funds. Therefore, the incentives have not been particularly good for better returns.

Secondly, there's been a crowding out of private equity investments by labour-sponsored venture capital firms. This has been shown in several papers that have been published in the past. But there is good reason for that, because what happens when you have a generous tax system that encourages investment in certain types of firms is you end up distorting signals in the market and you end up getting too many poor firms coming in and displacing the investments of good firms. That undermines the market as a result, which is one of the reasons why our venture capital market has had such poor returns, as I noted earlier.

Then, finally, it's not surprising that investors get such low rates of return because of the various tax benefits, including their RRSP deductions, which are piled on top of it. Really, they're only worried about the tax returns that they might get and pay less attention to the economic returns from getting their investments. Depending on the province, it can be almost three-quarters of the cost being covered. Therefore, it is really not sensible for our government to have a policy that is turning capital investments into poor rates of return.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Colborne, please, for your presentation.

3:45 p.m.

Michael Colborne Partner, Thorsteinssons LLP

Thank you.

Honourable members, thank you for inviting me to speak today on Bill C-4.

I'm a tax lawyer with a law firm that is Canada's largest law firm that practises exclusively in the area of taxation. I act for large and small mining companies both Canadian and foreign-based. That role I'm privileged to say has taken me around the world. It has taken me everywhere from the Atacama Desert to the far north of Canada. I spend a lot of time in remote and rural Canadian communities.

You can probably guess what I'm going to talk about today. I am going to talk about the aspects of this bill that deal with certain measures that repeal some deductions for mining companies. But before I get into that I'd like to start by saying it's fair to say, in fact it's fair praise to say, that this bill contains a lot of good measures. Like Mr. Mintz I'm a fan of tax neutrality. I am actually a fan of the invisible hand, and I do see the benefit of a broad base and a low rate. However I'm not an economist. I'm a simple lawyer and in some circumstances I can be convinced that there are exceptions to these rules and they should be made for circumstances where it's merited.

One of these I share with long-standing government policy is the marriage that we've had in place since at least 1972, and indeed in other forms before that. This measure is something that we call accelerated capital cost allowance and we also have accelerated deductions for certain types of other investments made by mining companies in relation to the construction of new mines.

Essentially what these measures do is allow you to take your capital out before you share the profit reward with the government in the forms of tax. These rules are being proposed to be repealed by the budget and I'll be magnanimous about this and say that the government is being very generous in terms of the way they're phasing the rules out. They recognize the fact that the timelines to build mines are long and a significant capital decision has been made long before the decision to repeal the rules was made.

I find it a bit ironic though that the proposal is made at a time when build costs are at an historical high and while mill prices, which are always volatile, are perhaps more volatile than ever in a situation where we have Canadian companies looking at investing in very mature areas like Canada where projects require very complex engineering and a lot of capital, and are very risky.

I think the historical reason for these rules is pretty clear in the record going back to 1966. You can read the Carter Commission and there are lots of reasons for these, but ultimately the government settled on these rules because they recognized that it was a good policy to provide an incentive for people to invest in capital-intensive, highly risky ventures in remote areas in rural Canada. They are a deliberate and conscious departure from tax neutrality. I think that government after government has realized to date that this departure is merited.

The reasons for the departure stated in the budget papers are that the repeal of these rules puts mining on the same footing as the oil and gas industry and it furthers the government's environmental objectives. I'm not an economist but I can tell you anecdotally that I don't think that we're comparing apples and oranges when we compare conventional oil and gas, or even oil sands oil and gas, and hardrock mining in mature areas of Canada. I will leave that to experts to think about.

As for the environmental objectives it's not entirely clear to me what the correlation is. The government says this is to assist their medium-term goals for the use of inefficient fossil fuels. At the same time the government is doing what I think are very good things in terms of funding and encouraging work training and the like in communities that service mining. So we have two messages that are being given by the government here and I don't see how they correlate to environmental objectives.

It goes without saying that mining companies are very large investors in rural and remote Canada, northern Canada. They may be the very largest outside the oil sands. I have read, and I am told by my friends, that some advocacy groups purport that some of the mining companies in Canada are the largest employer of first nations persons. I can tell you by having gone to talk to mining engineers and dealing with communities in terms of the impact benefit agreements that the effect that these employers have in these rural communities is enormous.

I've seen the other side of it—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Colborne, you have about one minute remaining in your opening statement.

3:50 p.m.

Partner, Thorsteinssons LLP

Michael Colborne

I'll be brief. Mining companies have a lot of flexibility in terms of their capital allocation choices. Factors such as this, while unlikely to really enrich the government purse much, can tip the balance between investment here on the ground in Canada and elsewhere.

In conclusion, it is my hope that the repeal of these rules is done with the full knowledge that it is a deliberate change and rejection of long-standing policy at a time when that policy seems as relevant as ever. It likely will have an effect on remote communities across the country. Personally I can't see it being a positive effect.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll now hear from Mr. Hayos, please.

3:55 p.m.

Gabriel Hayos Vice-President, Taxation, Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members, for inviting the Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada to comment on Bill C-4, which implements certain measures from the 2013 budget. I'm pleased to be with you via video conference this afternoon.

In my role as vice-president, taxation, I oversee the activities of CPA Canada’s tax committees, including the tax policy committee and the commodity tax committee as well as the Canadian Bar Association/Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada joint committee on taxation.

We are generally supportive of the bill. It introduces technical tax provisions that are focused primarily on protecting the tax base. They include restricting corporate and trust loss trading; broadening Canada’s thin capitalization rules; ensuring that capital gains tax cannot be avoided by a taxpayer entering into transactions that are economically equivalent to a disposition of a property; eliminating unintended tax benefits related to leveraged insured annuities and leveraged insurance arrangements; clarifying legislation to respond to court decisions; and restoring the intended tax policy results in the areas of farm losses, non-resident trusts, and future reclamation costs.

As you can appreciate, these can be very complex issues. If I could make one observation, it is that the proposed legislation was released on September 13 and the comment period ended October 15. The bill was then tabled three days later. I think we all would have benefited from a longer period of time to fully analyze, digest, and comment on legislation of such complexity.

CPA Canada has provided comments on some of these provisions through written submissions of the CBA/CPA Canada joint committee, including derivative forward agreements, synthetic disposition arrangements, and amendments to the thin capitalization rules.

Our comments were of a highly technical nature and detailed our concerns that in many instances the provisions are too broad in application. Consequently, they capture circumstances that do not appear to be intended by the government’s public policy objectives. The joint committee will continue to work with Finance to modify these rules appropriately while ensuring that the tax base is protected.

We note that Bill C-4 makes certain changes to the capital cost allowance rules. Our comment here is focused on what has not been done. We believe that in future capital cost allowance rates should be reviewed for all classes of equipment so that they correspond to the true economic life of the asset. Updating CCA rates would encourage manufacturers and others to invest in the most modern, productivity-enhancing equipment available, thus ensuring their competitiveness in a truly global economy.

Finally, I would like to comment broadly on the introduction of various anti-avoidance rules in Bill C-4. We support these changes, but they open up the broader issue of anti-avoidance rules and tax evasion. Last week, CPA Canada released a white paper entitled “Corporate tax evasion, avoidance and competition: Analyzing the issues and proposing solutions”. I believe all members of the committee have been sent a copy of this paper.

The topic of tax evasion versus legal tax planning and the related concept of corporations paying their fair share of tax is big and is getting bigger. In fact, the OECD is working on behalf of the G-20 to develop global solutions aimed at stopping tax evasion. Our white paper offers some food for thought to Canadian policy-makers and influencers, and I commend it to you. We would be pleased to return to this committee sometime in the future if you decide you would like to explore the issues of tax evasion and tax planning.

Mr. Chairman, I wish you and your colleagues well in your deliberations on Bill C-4, and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Caron for five minutes.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Bolduc.

Concerning the offer you made to the federal government, you said that you offered, if the government went back on its decision to eliminate the tax credit, to invest $2 billion directly over 10 years in the federal venture capital action plan, and cap the number of shares you would issue to reduce tax spending.

Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

When did you make this offer to the government and what was its response?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

Yvon Bolduc

It was during a consultation session. There were two consultations. The first was in July. We submitted an official written offer on October 15.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

And what was the government's response?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

Yvon Bolduc

We have not had any feedback on the subject.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

No response?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

Yvon Bolduc

Not at all.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Not even an acknowledgement of receipt?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Fonds de solidarité des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

Yvon Bolduc

They sent us an acknowledgment of receipt, but no discussion has been started on the proposal.