Finance Committee on May 29th, 2014

Evidence of meeting #39 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-31, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 11, 2014 and other measures

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Ernewein General Director, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Ted Cook Senior Legislative Chief, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Bernard Butler Director General, Policy Division, Policy, Communications and Commemoration Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Suzy McDonald Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Jason Wood Director, Policy and Program Development, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Brian McCauley Assistant Commissioner, Canada Revenue Agency

Denise Frenette Vice-President, Finance and Corporate Services, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency

Soren Halverson Senior Chief, Corporate Finance and Asset Management, Department of Finance

Wayne Foster Director, Securities Policies, Department of Finance

James Wu Chief, Financial Institutions Analysis, Department of Finance

Donald Roussel Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Kash Ram Director General, Road Safety and Motor Vehicle Regulation, Department of Transport

Michel Leclerc Director, Regulatory Affairs Coordination, Department of Transport

Colin Spencer James Director, Policy and Program Design, Temporary Foreign Workers, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Darlene Carreau Chairperson, Trade-marks Opposition Board, Department of Industry

Paul Halucha

Nathalie Martel Director, Old Age Security Policy, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thao Pham Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal Montreal Bridges, Department of Transport

France Pégeot Special Advisor to the Deputy Minister, Department of Justice

Ann Chaplin Senior General Counsel, Department of Justice

Atiq Rahman Director, Operational Policy and Research, Department of Employment and Social Development

6:40 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

They would have WHMIS labelling.

As to your earlier point about confidential information, if somebody is using a product that has a confidential business information component, they can apply for an exemption through the WHMIS program. Then, we have a biologist do a review to determine whether or not the information is being adequately disclosed to workers, so that they know how to handle the products appropriately. There is a mechanism for confidential business information and the worker's right to know to coexist within the WHMIS system.

Jason, did you want to add something to that?

6:40 p.m.

Director, Policy and Program Development, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Jason Wood

In relation to Ms. McDonald's comments about having a hazard-based system, we're talking about the intrinsic properties of these chemicals and their disclosure.

When we're talking about chemicals that are designed for a specific use, it sounds like the types of risks that you are looking at addressing are based on that use, or how the product would be used.

6:40 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

That's right.

6:45 p.m.

Director, Policy and Program Development, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Jason Wood

WHMIS doesn't address that aspect. In many cases, these are large quantity industrial chemicals that may have a wide variety of uses. We are looking at the intrinsic hazards of those chemicals, but not the hazards in relation to the specific uses.

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I'm trying to pull those two things apart. We identify them as hazardous materials, regardless of their use. Your interaction with them occurs when workers are exposed. There are other factors, such as how the environment or water tables are exposed to these same hazardous materials. That's not your game; that's for Environment Canada and other departments.

What we're seeking to do, under PV-7, is to have some sort of full disclosure. I'll offer this up to my colleagues across the way. Companies are consistently coming forward and saying that they have no problem doing this. You're suggesting that WHMIS isn't the way to register the full composite of fracking fluid components. Is that the idea?

6:45 p.m.

Director, Policy and Program Development, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Jason Wood

Disclosure does exist as part of the system. All of the hazardous components of these products are disclosed on safety data sheets. Those are already provided.

The end use of the chemical isn't taken into consideration in relation to the hazards. We are talking about the intrinsic properties of the chemicals themselves.

6:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. McKay, and then Mr. Allen....

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I'm trying to absorb the reasoning for the government's opposition to this disclosure. Your argument is that this disclosure occurs only with respect to the safety and health of the workers themselves. Is that correct?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

That is the scope of our program.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

That is the scope of the program.

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

And of the Hazardous Products Act itself.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

As to whether it has any other impact, be it environmental, or water table, or whatever, you are not interested in that.

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

That's perhaps a mischaracterization. What I am saying is that it's not within the scope of the Hazardous Products Act and the scope of the program that we are responsible for.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Even if you narrowcast your argument, what is the great harm of the amendment?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

I think the point that we're making is that Parliament enacted the Hazardous Products Act for a specific reason, which included protecting the health of workers, specifically with regard to disclosure of the intrinsic properties of the hazardous chemicals. This falls well outside the scope of what the Hazardous Products Act was intended to do.

I think the suggestion really falls outside of the parliamentary enactment of the Hazardous Products Act.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

How is the disclosure of the complete chemical composition and toxicity outside of the scope of the Hazardous Products Act?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

We deal with the intrinsic hazards of products. We look at whether or not something causes cancer. If it does, then you need to label it appropriately. You need to indicate that on the safety data sheet and on the label.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

If it causes cancer.... Well, let's go with cancer. What is wrong with disclosing the complete composition and toxicity for the purposes of cancer, or heart, or lungs, or whatever, on the workers?

6:45 p.m.

Director, Policy and Program Development, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Jason Wood

The safety data sheet that's required under the Hazardous Products Act does disclose the list of chemicals that are hazardous. Any of the hazardous classes that are covered by WHMIS, and any chemical that falls within those hazard classes, is already disclosed. That's part of the system. The system is about disclosure.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Chair, I'm not going to belabour this, but it does speak to the whole issue of having this legislative dump. This should be pursued either at the health committee, or the environment committee, or whatever. Anyway, it is what it is.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Allen, please.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I appreciate Ms. McDonald's comments because it's true, the fracking fluids are made up of a number of different things including sand, water, and other chemicals, for sure. In this case, if a chemical was being brought in on a stand-alone basis for the purpose of that, it would fall under this type of thing.

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Workplace Hazardous Materials Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health

Suzy McDonald

Correct.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

But when it's combined into the fracking fluid that would be put in the ground, then it wouldn't fall into this legislation. But certainly there would be a review of those fracking chemicals both at the provincial level, which would set the regulations for what the composition of the fracking fluids are, and there would be an environmental impact assessment in the frack well.

This fracking fluid is way outside the WHMIS piece. It was part of another complete legislative proposal. I think it's important for provincial regulations to delve into that kind of thing, but that's not part of this legislation today.