Finance Committee on Oct. 7th, 2014

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Thank you very much.

I'll go to Mr. Fleming and Mr. Robinson. Again, my apologies if I repeat something that's already been said, but I had to be in the House at the beginning of this meeting.

I have a question around a recent story about changes being sought by some in the pharmaceutical industry to allow permission for earlier-stage testing of new drugs on younger Canadians. That is permitted in the U.S. and Europe. I didn't notice it specifically in your submission. Maybe you referenced it earlier. Could you illuminate what you're asking for, if the industry is?

[Walter Robinson]

We didn't allude to it, Mr. Cullen. On the story that I think you're referring to, I don't believe that any.... Rx&D has not formally asked for that. It was a study commissioned by the Council of Canadian Academies on the need for pediatric clinical trials and the subpopulation.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Are you in support of this?

[Walter Robinson]

We're looking at the study, and in general, yes, in the context that if there's an opportunity to have rigorous Health Canada-approved trials to ensure that the medications that doctors are prescribing to children and to other subgroups as well.... The Senate committee has studied a lot of this. If we can further science safely and ensure that our clinicians are prescribing medications that have been tested in pediatric populations to improve patient health, children's health—I'm a father—and to reduce unnecessary adverse events, with proper science, that would be a good thing.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Robinson, it's nice to see you again.

We were talking about the gaps. There were a number of questions from my Conservative colleagues about bringing people up into the trades, more emphasis on the skilled trades, and ticketed apprenticeships.

Is there a role for government in that gap that seems to exist in regard to the reluctance from some employers in the heavy industries to take on those apprentices? Apprentices are sometimes perceived as expensive, and you don't get as high a quality of work. Also, there's been this overlay of what you called—and I don't want to misquote you—the disastrous temporary foreign worker program that allowed an easy solution to a complicated problem. Is there any role for government in closing that gap when a young person in particular has received their tickets, yet struggles to find the full apprenticeship placement they need? Is there a role for the federal government in this?

[Nobina Robinson]

For the benefit of those who don't know—and I always run into people who don't know—apprenticeship is at least a five-way maze in the relationship between the individual, the employer, the training institution, the province that knows the seat purchase, and the federal government that's doing a whole bunch of financial supports. So, of course, there's a federal role.

The question, though, and I think it's important.... We are finding that enough young people are enrolling for the first level of apprenticeship. The country's challenge is to get people to see through to the last level of their training, challenge the last exam, and get the certification. When we say young, we have to be careful; the average age of an entry apprentice is 27.

There is a role for government to promote and get them in to things like pre-apprenticeship—learning how to hold a hammer, how to work with an automotive engine. The real role right now is working with employers and finding financial incentives to get them to help with completion.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Thank you, Ms. Robinson.

Over to you, Mr. Van Kesteren, for up to five minutes, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for coming.

I don't know where to go. There are so many interesting discussions that have taken place.

Ms. Robinson, I'm going to go back to you. You suggested, and I think rightly so, that more information is needed to find out what is needed in the workplace.

Is there provision, or are you making a recommendation, for the other end, which is the student end, so that when kids come out of high school, they know that here's where their opportunities lie? Is that—

[Nobina Robinson]

Thank you very much for the question.

That's exactly what we think the function of a new labour market information council should be: to have one stop where the supply side and the demand side are put together. I think the real users of such good new data would be high school guidance counsellors, parents, students in grade seven and eight who are trying to see....

We've been doing voodoo science projection, something called COPS, where we try to see what the labour market forecast will be ten years out. We need to know where we're going to be three years out, five years out. That's the sweet spot that will help the high school student.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That's most helpful. I think you're absolutely right.

I want to tell you a little story, and I'm going to ask you to comment on this too. This is in regard to the colleges and the different programs that are offered.

In my own circumstance, I have a number of sons who are policemen. It's a great job. I was addressing a group of tradespeople, and we were having a discussion about the pay of the one as to the other. I made the suggestion that maybe we're attracting more people in those jobs than in the actual trades. One guy responded and said, “You're bleep bleep right.” He said, I told my son—I think this guy was a plumber or something—that there's no way he was going to take this job; he was going into the police services.

Are you competing against those types of jobs? Second, is there a role to play for governments to recognize that when they compete for talent they're actually making it more difficult for young people to enter the trades, or at least choose the trades as opposed to some of these other government jobs?

[Nobina Robinson]

Sorry, for some clarification on the second question: a role for government, when they...? Who's “they”?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Well, young people coming out of colleges are oftentimes choosing government training jobs as opposed to the trades that you're advocating for and saying we need so much.

Is that part of the equation too? Are we leaving that out of there as well?

[Nobina Robinson]

I want to say that we have 300 or 400 trades professions; not all of the trades are in high demand. What we really need is to know which trades—and I would add further, the occupations, the professions—are in high demand from the employer side.

We are seeing demand for some of our programs. I can't tell you that every program is bursting at the seams, but I can tell you which ones are.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

If I could interject quickly, how important is it for us to keep the cost of CPP, keep the cost of EI, keep those costs..... It's ultimately the employer who is going to hire these young people. If they're challenged in those areas, then how important is it for us, as a government, to make sure....

I guess there are two parts to this equation, probably three.

[Nobina Robinson]

Many.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Yes.

We're leaving a very important part of that discussion out.

[Nobina Robinson]

I'm maybe not totally hearing your question.

With regard to the anecdote you gave about the police officer and the plumber, we don't know the earning power options. We just don't have the data. We know it in our local reality, but we need to make this available. That's number one.

There is a role for the federal government in supporting all of this. Absolutely. There are some things—job creation tax credit—but we now need to look at sharp financial incentives that target the problem. If the employers are telling you they don't have enough welders, do they know that at NAIT there are welders who are being turned away? Why is that not known?

I'm perhaps not answering you completely correctly, but, to me, there's a role for government in getting the data out.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Do you have one very small question, Mr. Van Kesteren?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I think I'll pass. It's pretty difficult to do that. So thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Nathan Cullen]

Perhaps you can commune with Mr. Adler. He has five minutes to ask questions and he could ask it for you.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

He probably has lots of good questions himself.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, all, for being here this afternoon.

I do want to just begin with Ms. Robinson. You mentioned early on—and I want you to expand on this—that we must learn how to innovate. Could you speak more about that, please?

[Nobina Robinson]

I think it was in my opening remarks. I believe that all workers can innovate and that innovation skills are what we really need to be imparting to all our learners.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

How do we do that?

[Nobina Robinson]

I think the best way to do it is through applied education where you combine the theory with the practical. That's my philosophical commitment to polytechnic applied education.

But you see, up to now—and I say this with all the experience I gained from the R and D review panel, also known as the Robinson panel, but truly known as the Jenkins panel—we've said that innovation is an elite game. I sit here with august research bodies and I feel as if one of these things just doesn't belong, as on Sesame Street. I don't hear those who are talking about Canada's science achievements saying that we need the makers, the people who build the prototypes, who do the cost avoidance studies, and who do the scaling up. So I think that all workers need to be innovative. That's my absolute conviction.