That's what I was going to say, Mr. Chair. I'll put on my former hat as a former university president.
First of all, we have to recognize that defined benefit plans across Canada are very, very challenging in a period where the inflation rate is extremely low and where the actuarial estimates also need to be adjusted, number one.
Number two, I would argue, and this was the case at my university, there was a rule of having a maximum 10% surplus in your pension plan, at which time you had to have a contribution holiday. Even then, many pension plans had to pay the surplus back to employees. I remember very well at the University of Ottawa, where I was the university president, having to take a pension holiday. We did not necessarily want everybody to take a pension holiday, the staff and/or the university. This I think is responsible for a large part of the problem that we have right now.