Finance Committee on Oct. 19th, 2017

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to all the people here today to share their expertise. I learn something new every day, and you're certainly giving me a lot, for at least a week.

I'd like to start with the Institute for Quantum Computing. I was terribly disappointed by your presentation, particularly when you didn't address how political particles are just different. They act differently, they seem to do weird things on their own that regular particles, behaviours, don't do.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Seriously, I appreciate the position, because your organization is part of the reason Canada has taken a world role. Given the fact that we see more investment by multiple actors, I think that's a good thing. I think it's certainly going to extend human knowledge and it's also going to disperse the costs of that human knowledge over a wider tax base, because it shouldn't just be up to Canada to do that.

As a smaller player, we have one of the greatest, most highly educated population, so I certainly think Canada can continue to play a leading role, but given that context, I would much rather hear from you how we are creating a specialized niche, an area of leadership where Canada can contribute more than any other country in the world, given our own context and our own work. Could you elaborate on what that position is?

[Dr. Martin Laforest, Senior Manager, Scientific Outreach, Institute for Quantum Computing]

I'm Martin Laforest. I work with Tobi at the Institute for Quantum Computing.

When you mentioned that we are creating a particular niche, I would like to come back to that. Yes, maybe now it looks like a niche, quantum technologies, but the impact that quantum technologies can have is extremely vast and across the board. I will take, for example, the idea of digital technology. Back in the 1960s, there were five computers on earth and a few people were using them. Now 7% of the global economy relies on digital technologies. In the long run, quantum information and quantum technologies are the same type of idea.

Here in Canada, we have set up a very strong research base, but also smooth out the path to commercialization. It's not just a question of building one or two little gizmos that a few people might buy. We're setting up Canada to reap the economic benefits of this in the short, medium, and long run. This is why the importance of—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I certainly appreciate it, but when you see China apparently investing $10 billion, then you ask the question given those circumstances, because I imagine they're going to do a fair bit of general research as well. We may see some duplication there, and that's not a bad thing, since basic research is important, but again, when we're talking about Canada's competitive advantage in quantum computing, which areas of specialization will we pick? Is what you're requesting all going to go into general research, or are we going to ask if this is the area where we think Canada can lead more than any other country?

[Tobi Day-Hamilton]

I'll take that one.

The interesting part about what we can do here in Canada is we're seeing lots of investment in quantum computing around the world. In IQC and other places around Canada, we're doing a broader scale of research. We're looking at quantum communication, satellites that provide unbreakable cryptography. We're one of the leaders, behind China—unfortunately, they did it first—but we're working with the Canadian Space Agency now to be the next to put an unbreakable quantum satellite in the air. We're also looking at quantum sensors, and those will have a profound impact.

I think those areas, along with quantum computing, will be where we'll have the most impact on health, medicine, and natural resource exploration, because we won't be able to compete with the $10 billion. Also, Alibaba just put $15 billion into quantum computing. I think we have more opportunity on the sensors, on the other technologies that will be there.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

When you come to the finance committee, those are the areas that I would much rather have a little more detail on. How can Canada step out, especially when considering there is so much focus on this area?

I'd like to move to the Canadian Convenience Stores Association—again, thank you for being here today—and Bill S-228. It has received first reading, so obviously it hasn't come up for formal debate at second reading.

Will this apply not just to the store owner and where they place products? Most of us would remember saving our pennies and nickels to buy gum and other candies, and they're at the lowest place on the aisle where of course kids can then see them. Is that what you're concerned with, or are we talking about the manufacturer of potato chips, etc., having to plain-package their bags or at least do it to have no cartoon characters?

Lastly, does advertising for those products generate enthusiasm and push people into your stores? Can you elaborate a little on that?

[Satinder Chera]

There are two things. I would say when you look at Bill S-228 on its own, it's pretty broad language. Again, it's not clear to us that any rules coming out of that legislation, enabling the legislation, would not be foisted upon retailers so that retailers would be ultimately accountable under whatever rules come out of that.

Then when you take Health Canada's current review on marketing to kids in conjunction with that, the concerns obviously are what impact this is going to have at the store in terms of layouts. Our members invest in ensuring family-friendly state stores. Will this legislation force them to change the store layout? What will be the cost of that investment? In addition to that, in terms of some practical considerations, for example, will their employees be able to handle certain products or not? Again, it's not clear to us.

The legislation is very broad, and then when you have this consultation with next to no acknowledgement that these products are sold in convenience stores, the concern obviously is that our channel is being passed by and that people are going to realize at the 11th hour that this is actually going to have an impact on small family-run operations.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

As a parliamentarian, I'm quite concerned, because what the bill would actually do is make it subject to Health Canada to basically come up with the regulations. There is no reference to a fine or to any consequences to let me as a parliamentarian see what will go on. It may end up that they just simply ban certain activities. I'm also worried about, in a confederation as large as Canada, the unfair application of investigative ability by Health Canada to be able to fairly make sure the rules are being followed.

I certainly appreciate the concerns raised today. I'm sure there will be a full debate in the House. Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to make a comment in front of the committee before asking questions. It's more about actual physics than quantum physics. This week we witnessed the collision of two neutron stars at 130 million light years—not really close, but very interesting. The collision produced, surprisingly, gold, so let's not say that science can not produce wealth. It's a little bit of a stretch, but....

I will continue in French.

I am extremely sensitive to all aspects of scientific research, be it of the applied or basic variety. The latter is just as important because, someday—we never know—it may become applied. I am very happy to see that you are in a position of leadership in quantum computing research.

However, I would like to understand something. I know that, in other sectors, such as particle accelerators, various countries are working together at CERN, in Switzerland. When it comes to very focused research of this kind, which has a very good chance of commercialization, I assume that you are competing much more with other countries and that, if you fall behind, others will manufacture the computer and flood the market, ultimately leaving us with nothing.

[Dr. Martin Laforest]

It depends on what stage the research is at.

There is currently still basic research to be done when it comes to quantum technologies. We know that those technologies are very powerful and we know about a few applications, but we are still trying to understand other applications. So there is still some basic research to be done, as well as highly applied research and research more focused on commercialization.

When it comes to basic research, as well as applied research, we are part of a global community. This is university research, so it is very open. We collaborate with about 60 different institutions from around the world. However, there is no doubt that, as we get closer to intellectual property, we start talking about businesses and things get a bit more competitive.

That is one of our goals in Waterloo. We don't want to be closed, either. It is important to have the entire community's support and collaboration. In addition, one of the benefits of having created an ecosystem in Waterloo is that we are in an extremely solid position to take advantage of that global research and ensure that the economy and the industry will be developed in Canada. We are well positioned to be able to take advantage of all that.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I will ask you a question that has been put to many other guests this week.

As a scientist, do you support the recommendations of the Naylor report when it comes to investment in basic and applied research?

[Dr. Martin Laforest]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay. Good.

Mr. Chera, thank you very much for your presentation.

As a member from Montreal, I can tell you that we have convenience stores on every street corner. There are many of them. So that is a very important aspect of the business fabric.

Over the past several years, the Association québécoise des dépanneurs en alimentation has also been approaching Quebec members about the fees charged when people pay with a credit card. That issue is still unresolved.

I had an opportunity to meet with MasterCard and Visa representatives in Ottawa. I put that question to them. The answer we often receive is that a lot of money has to be invested in new technology. There are now chip cards we don't need to slide, as well as contactless cards. All that leads to a lot of costs, and it has to be profitable.

What's your response to that argument?

[Satinder Chera]

Again I would say if you look at other jurisdictions where the same credit card companies provide the tap-and-go service, they've managed to bring credit card rates down to 0.3% of transactions or 0.5% of transactions.

I guess what we would say is openness and transparency are critical. We haven't, quite frankly, seen it from the credit card companies. They should justify why they can't do it in Canada. They can do it in other places in the world; why can't they do it in Canada? That's a question we've put to them, to which we haven't received an answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have two minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay.

Thank you for your answer, Mr. Chera. It's very enlightening. I have another question for you.

In Montreal East, there are several areas referred to as “food deserts”. People who live there have no car and don't have easy access to a grocery store with fresh fruits and vegetables. So they get their food from your members, convenience stores, which generally don't sell fresh fruits and vegetables.

I see in your recommendations that you want to cooperate in order to provide a larger selection of fresh products in convenience stores.

That seems very worthwhile to me. What would you want the federal government to do to encourage you to move in that direction?

[Satinder Chera]

I think this is where we can find some alignment with the government's overall objective, which is to create healthy communities, most notably by giving convenience store operators the ability to invest in refrigeration equipment, which is not inexpensive.

You quite correctly have pointed out food deserts in certain parts of the country. We frankly do believe that this would go a long way in allowing community stores to broaden the selection of products that they provide to their customers. Again, they are there to reflect or to deliver what their customers are asking of them, and this is one of the reasons we tabled this recommendation last year for this committee's consideration. Certainly with the government's ongoing discussion around creating healthy communities, particularly in communities where convenience stores are the only option in town, this would make a big difference.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Dan Albas]

I went a little bit over with the last two speakers, so I'm going to give you another minute.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Marchand.

You raised a point that many people have brought up everywhere we go. I am talking about workforce training and having people who can fill positions. I really liked your expression,

“Jobs without people and people without jobs”.

We have to push our young people to attend university, but we also have to reassert the value of jobs, professional training and trades. What role would you like the federal government to play in that cultural change? Jobs are all too often available, but no one can do the work.

[Matthew Marchand]

That's a great question. Thanks for asking it.

As to what we can ask from the federal government, I think there are a couple of things. Use the power of the microphone. Have your senior ministers and MPs engage your communities back home and tell them, look, skilled trade is important. It's a very well-regarded profession. There are lots of good reasons to go to university and get a liberal arts degree. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you want a job that pays well, if you want a path to entrepreneurship, if you want to be your own boss, if you want a chance to make lots of money, this is where you need to be.

In countries like Germany, the skilled trades are well regarded. We need the message. It's one thing for the Windsor-Essex chamber and for my colleagues to say it, but we need the leadership of the Canadian government across the board—MPs, ministers, even as high as the Prime Minister—to talk about the importance of getting into skilled trades.

I can go on and on. We're having the minimum wage debate here in Ontario, and it's a nice debate to have. At the end of the day, we have hundreds of jobs that are paying well more than minimum wage, often twice times more, in the skilled sector that are going unfilled. Let's get people skilled up, let's drive incomes, but we need help from you folks to drive home the message that the skilled trades are a very important career path and are well respected and well regarded. You can be your own boss. You can be your own employer. It's the way to go. We're going to do our part, but we need you to help us out.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Dan Albas]

We appreciate that.

MP O'Connell, you have about seven minutes.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Barocas, thanks so much for your presentation. I'm familiar with the program. When I was a member of the Toronto region conservation authority, we also had a presentation, but Earth Rangers brought a lemur. That really caught our attention. I was wondering if you'd be bringing anything today...?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!