Finance Committee on Nov. 7th, 2017

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As a new member of this committee, I'm getting a little confused. Diabetes Canada is here on behalf of the Conservatives, who've asked them to come as witnesses, and now they're kind of scolding us for asking questions.

The submission that Diabetes Canada has made is not clear. I'm sure they also represent the disability promoters. That's something new. I didn't know they did that. I don't know if we have that in Northwest Territories, which I represent. Diabetes is very widespread amongst aboriginal people. My mother was diabetic. Almost everyone in my family is diabetic. I'm not there yet, but with the pattern that has established itself, I'm sure at some point it is something that will challenge me.

I'm also stuck for questions for everybody else, because most of the presenters don't have a presence in Northwest Territories.

The Canadian Nurses Association has really done a lot of good work in my riding. I'm very happy for some of the efforts that you've put in to try to get nurse practitioners in the north. They've done so much good in that area.

I think I'm the only MP who lives in a small aboriginal community. I never in my life have seen a doctor twice in a row. Every doctor flies in and leaves. We have a very tight schedule. They come in once every two weeks, or sometimes once a month. Nurse practitioners are doing a lot of good.

The issue of disability promoters and such is very concerning. I want to ask the Canadian Nurses Association if you think our government should form an advisory committee to work on this whole issue to make sure it's clear, to get to the root of some of the discussion that's happening. It's not something that I take lightly, and I think we need to do more work in that area.

Can you maybe tell us what your opinion is on it?

[Josette Roussel]

Of course. Thank you for the question.

We believe in discussions and dialogue. It's a good way to really hear everyone's point of view. We trust that the committee will have the right discussions and the right decision on this issue. We are hearing similarly that there are discussions currently happening at the CRA on this issue, and nurses are invited to the table. We are pleased to be at the table to provide expertise and to support, in any way, this issue. As you know, nurse practitioners are new in this part of their practice, to be able to certify. We're learning. We're providing a lot of education and are creating fact tools to enable an easier understanding of this new process.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Further to that, in your presentation you talked about scaling up. Scaling up, I'm assuming, is with the nurse practitioners. Could you explain a little more about what you meant when you made that comment?

[Josette Roussel]

It's important to scale up any legislative barriers that would enable the further ability of nurse practitioners to fully practise to their full potential. Scaling up any changes that we have done, that's what I was referring to in my testimony. What we're seeing right now with the changes, it's very positive; it's positive to Canadians and will have a great impact on Canadians having access to those tax credits, not being delayed with process, and having them in a timely manner.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

In the north there are not a lot of nurse partitioners. In the area I live in, the tribe that I belong to, we have 10 communities. Most of the time we have one nurse practitioner, if the person doesn't get burnt out and decide to leave. That happens a lot. The position is vacant about 30% to 40% of the time.

Is there a way that we could look at other people taking on some of the responsibilities for making the prescriptions and some of the duties that the nurse practitioner has? They do good work, but there are not enough to go around. Is there a way we could get other people to fill in some of the responsibilities? Or do you have any suggestions on how we could increase the number of nurse practitioners in the north?

[Josette Roussel]

That's a very good question. There have been multiple initiatives to try to increase the number their own nurse practitioners in their own communities. Some models are successful in attracting and gaining those resources, which are really precious to communities. Sometimes it's a matter of the educational preparation of the current nurses who are practising in those communities, but certainly having education available to aboriginal community members and access to that education and resources so that you can increase the number within your community and retain them has been successful in small communities in Canada. It is a challenge, and I agree with you about having a dialogue and learning from each other. You can learn and develop some resources and keep them in your communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll end it there, Michael.

Mr. Albas, go ahead for five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony here today on Bill C-63. I would like to pursue the topic du jour, the disability tax credit.

Ms. Hanson, thank you for your advocacy, not just at this table but your ongoing commitment to making sure people get the help and resources they need. I would like to ask a little bit about the disability tax credit. Obviously, the typical type 1 diabetic who receives it gets on average, I believe, around $1,500.

There is a bigger cost, which I don't think we've discussed here today. In order for people to qualify for a registered disability savings plan, they must first be eligible for the DTC. Is that correct?

[Kimberley Hanson]

That's absolutely correct, and you're right in saying that it's a larger issue and really a huge source of worry for the people we represent.

As the committee knows well, in order to be eligible to have an RDSP, a person must first qualify for the DTC. Once you form an RDSP, you can make contributions to that plan and then you can attract grants and bonds from the federal government that help the individual who is suffering from a disability or their family provide financial stability for their future against the risks that they will experience periods of inability to work.

The grants and bonds relate to a contribution made by the individual, but they are multiples of it. RDSPs were introduced only in 2008 and so nobody has yet been able to vest them. You can't contribute after you're 50 and you can't cash them out before you're 65, so no one has been able to vest any of their RDSPs yet.

However, notwithstanding the fact that they were introduced only in 2008, I know a number of my counterparts, people approximately my age, working folks with type 1 diabetes, who have $50,000 in their RDSPs, which they're counting on for their retirement and which they are at risk of losing because they've now been disqualified.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Let's say someone is disqualified and they had around $50,000 in their RDSP. How much of that would be government grants over the years do you think?

[Kimberley Hanson]

As far as I understand it, the multiplier effect is about three or four times. So of the $45,000 or $50,000 that somebody has in an RDSP, they would lose, I think, $40,000. Maybe my math is wrong, but it would be a lot of it, the majority of it, because, as I understand it, when they lose their eligibility for the DTC, the government withdraws all of the grants and bonds that it had previously contributed and the individual is allowed to retain only the portion that they contributed personally.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

So since there is no appeals process for this. Once you're denied, that triggers this other ineligibility, does it not?

[Kimberley Hanson]

When you're denied, you are also notified that you'll have to close your RDSP. You then have one year in which to get a doctor or a nurse practitioner to fill out a form that says, “I'm pretty sure this person can be re-eligible within a year. Please hold.” They'll hold for one year and then after that, if you haven't become re-eligible, then it's gone. We're in a really tight window for some folks who got notified six months ago that they are no longer eligible.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

So with that then, where does that windfall, the grant moneys, go? Does it go back to the government?

[Kimberley Hanson]

That's my understanding.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay. That could be quite a lot of money. How much money do you think there is right now? Do you have any estimates? I know I've seen one that said around $100 million is in there and, of course, 2018 would be the earliest that anyone could start to withdraw, because there's a 10-year waiting period. Is that correct?

[Kimberley Hanson]

That's correct. We don't have numbers on this, of course, but there are a quarter of a million Canadians who live with type 1 diabetes. At least 100,000 of them must be eligible for the DTC. If even just 5% or 10% of them had RDSPs, it would be $100 million to $150 million that we're talking about.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

People aren't going to get the help they need right now, and worse than that, the people who have been setting aside the monies for which they were eligible will see those monies, from previous years when they were approved, just go back to government.

[Kimberley Hanson]

That's correct.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Have you asked the CRA for any transparency or any accounting of these numbers, how much they stand to receive back?

[Kimberley Hanson]

I have not. The RDSP is administered by ESDC, so we're stuck in a little bit of a procedural loop there. That is my next line of inquiry. I think I'm going to have to engage in a different channel on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to interrupt you both there. We're going to run out of time.

Mr. Fergus is the last questioner.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming.

Ms. Lennox, I could have asked you about Startup Canada, an initiative that I'm very supportive of. We had the opportunity to meet already. I'm very pleased to hear that you are satisfied with the cooperation with BDC regarding capital to encourage start-ups.

Mr. Thompson, I'm very pleased to hear that consultations with people in your industry to ensure equal treatment of beer products went well.

Mr. Dolson, thank you very much for your testimony.

Ms. Roussel and Ms. Hanson, it is impossible not to have questions for you, since your remarks raise many questions.

Ms. Hanson, thank you very much for your testimony. Also, thank you for the good work that Diabetes Canada does in helping out. It's certainly a real scourge of a disease. It has affected my family, and it's one that I'm very sensitive to, as are millions of Canadians.

Because of some of the questions and answers, I'm trying to get my head around this, and perhaps you can help me out. Has the law changed? That's a short question.

[Kimberley Hanson]

Very quickly, before I answer that question, I'd just like to thank you for your introductory remarks, and I'd like to briefly respond to a comment Mr. McLeod made in his question.

Mr. McLeod, I'm so sorry your mom had diabetes. As you say, it's a scourge.

I want to emphasize to the committee that I don't consider this a partisan issue. I'm thankful to the Conservative Party for the support it's given us in getting this issue out in the open. I consider this a procedural issue—an issue within the CRA. Diabetes Canada is working very closely with the government on the healthy eating strategy. We're very supportive of a number of initiatives, so I really don't want to position this as a partisan issue.

With respect to your question, no, there has been no change with respect to the Income Tax Act that pertains to how the DTC is made available to people with diabetes. As you well know, it's not in Bill C-63, and that's where it would be.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Right. I just wanted to make sure of that, being a new member to this file.

Thank you very much for your comments, and I'd like to echo as well that this is by no means a partisan issue at all, considering it's a scourge for many Canadians. All we can do to be supportive would be appreciated.

Have the regulations then changed in terms of this measure for...?