Evidence of meeting #123 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
It was a similar question to Mr. Robinson. What do you believe are the interests of minority shareholders in being a part of this bank?
Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
I think I used the word “cronyism”. It's perhaps a stronger word than Mr. Robinson likes to use, but he's a lawyer, so he's probably more careful with his language than I am.
I think it's just making sure that they have a seat at the table when the contracts for infrastructure projects are allocated.
Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
No, not at all. That could very well be in Canada's interest.
I think I made the point that the people at risk here are the people in Asia, who ultimately will be paying for these projects and supposedly will be the beneficiaries.
I was listening to the testimony yesterday, and I remember the chair of the committee asking, isn't the point of all this the local citizens in Asia? If that's the case, then I think they are at risk. However, if the case is to enrich businesses in Canada, this could make every amount of sense; just don't call yourself a development bank then.
November 7th, 2017 / 6:05 p.m.
Liberal
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you.
Mr. Cross, I take it that you agree with Mr. Robinson that it would seem that perhaps the only argument for this—and this may not be limited to Canada—is that participation in this bank is simply to participate in the cronyism that's anticipated in the awarding of contracts.
Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
As I say, there may be public relations concerns as well. I think they are very small. Maybe we want to antagonize the U.S. administration more than it is.
Who knows what the goals are?
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thank you.
It had been my intention to make sure we established what you felt about that, but I think you got to that in response to Mr. Fergus's comments too.
If I may turn to Mr. Robinson, you said in your opening remarks that membership in this self-described development bank should be conditional upon its adoption of a very specific set of governance practices that you enumerated.
Q.C., As an Individual
Yes. It's the particular agreement that was signed by the existing five international development banks to respect the corruption control regimes that each of them has. The way those corruption control regimes work is that if participants in a particular project are found by the particular bank, not by some court, to have been, quote, “corrupt”—accepting bribes is the classic one, or asking for bribes, if you look at the demand side—then the participants will be forbidden from being involved in any project in which any one of those banks thereafter would provide financing or an equity investment.
That's really powerful. That's closing the wagons around the settlers.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Thus far, there is no indication that the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank will adopt those guidelines, correct?
Q.C., As an Individual
No, in fact they've made significant progress in that regard, as evidenced by their public statement—I haven't had a chance to go behind the public statement to find out exactly what's been going on, but I'm going to take it at face value—that they've already voluntarily adopted the sanctions list. We're talking about more than hundreds of sanctioned companies, sanctioned first, usually by the World Bank, and now by the other four banks as well. They've adopted that list, and they say they are in negotiations with those five—let's face it, the World Bank is leading it—to join and sign that agreement.
I'm saying, wonderful, let's see them put their money where their mouth is and sign up. If they sign up to that agreement, the mutual debarment agreement, then you have the other five major development banks saying, “You are on board with us. We accept the fact that you're committed to no corruption existing at your bank and to debarring anybody who is corrupt.” I think it's nice that they voluntarily took the list on, but I'd like to see them go to the next step. I think Canada could very easily say that they will sign sign the agreement once those guys are admitted to the AMEDD, the mutual debarment agreement.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
So as a minority shareholder, or, it would seem, less than a 1% shareholder, based on the initial investment that Canada is to make, the likelihood of Canada—
Q.C., As an Individual
Yes, the numbers are all over the map on that. I'd never heard about the $500 million until today. I'd heard in the realm of $230 million.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
We sometimes seem to confuse and interchange American and Canadian dollars in the conversations around this. But even if we say 1%, is a 1% shareholder going to be able to compel the adoption of the anti-corruption control regimes?
As a 1% shareholder, what would be the likelihood of a Canadian holding one of those three non-Asian directorships on the bank?
Q.C., As an Individual
In answer to your last question, slim to nil. Let's say it's 63 and 22 others are accepted. You're well over 80. Those minority shareholders really have to vote en bloc and they have to get together. That's why we at Transparency International were recommending that TI, the major organization—there are 100 chapters, and TI Canada is just—
Conservative
Q.C., As an Individual
Well, no, they're on the corruption agenda there, that they should encourage all the minority shareholders to put the pressure on China to sign up.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Before I turn to Mr. Sorbara, perhaps we could clarify the numbers. Just going from memory, I believe the officials yesterday stated that $346 million Canadian would be the maximum we'd be going to in terms of our investment in that bank.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
It says the following on page 240:
The Minister of Finance may make payments out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the Bank in respect of Canada’s initial subscription of shares in an aggregate amount not more than US$ 375,000,000
Liberal
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to wait for the AIIB stuff until later on if I have time.
I would like to speak with Mr. Bradley from the Amalgamated Dairies Limited.
Mr. Bradley, could you please provide some colour to a non-rural MP on the health of our dairy industry in Canada, and how the changes in the BIA or the non-changes, as I would call them, are going to allow the dairy industry to continue to flourish, especially with regard to any sort of co-operatives that exist?
Chief Executive Officer, Amalgamated Dairies Limited
The dairy industry in Canada right now is quite strong and quite vibrant. Certainly the strength and the vibrancy of the industry are buttressed or supported by the diversity across both the production and the processing chain in the country. We have a great mix in the industry of co-operative-based farms and processors, as well as some that are privately owned. In our particular case of co-operatives, the money that our members are prepared to invest in the continued health of the industry is quite important to help us deal with the challenges that any future trade programs or trade agreements may bring to the industry.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Thank you, sir.
I'll now go over to Ms. Thompson of the Canadian Geothermal Energy Association.
Would you characterize the measure introduced in the BIA, Bill C-63, as a game-changer for the industry?