Finance Committee on Oct. 15th, 2018

[Chief Robert Dickson, Kluane First Nation]

Good morning. Dännch'e? Shäw nithän. Welcome to the Yukon.

I want to thank you guys for inviting me to speak to you today. My name is Robert Dickson. I'm the elected chief of Kluane First Nation, which is located about two and a half hours west of Whitehorse.

Our community has 250 members. We are continually dealing with capacity issues. We are a community unlike the other ones. Kluane First Nation is a stand-alone community. We have no YTG or municipalities to tie into and to deliver infrastructure to our community. We're the only game in town, and that's our issue. We have no school. We have no YTG resources. We've been working with YTG on trying to build a school. We're trying to build capacity and keep our students in our community. What happens in our community is that when our students hit grade 7, they have to move to either Haines Junction or Whitehorse. That creates a problem with capacity in our community. Whole families have to pick up and move. I wanted to tell you that little bit about our community, because that has a huge impact. Each year we lose families who have to move away for schooling.

I feel it is important that prior to setting the budget for 2019, you hear about the important work being done collaboratively between Canada and self-governing indigenous governments. This work will ultimately result in a budget 2019 request to Canada on improved funding for self-governing indigenous governments. By supporting self-governing Yukon first nations, the federal government is ultimately supporting Canadians and Canada's economy. Yukon first nations people make up 25% of the population. There are 11 first nations with final agreements in the Yukon. Those 11 first nations are important employers in the Yukon, and generate a significant amount of revenue that goes back into the economy. Economic growth comes from Canada fulfilling its obligation and having the necessary resources to allow Yukon first nations to provide important programs and services, provide jobs and support local businesses.

To ensure that self-governing Yukon first nations have the resources needed, self-governing indigenous governments and Canada are working on a new federal self-governing fiscal policy. Figuring out how to make the policy work is a major good-news story about the federal government making good on its promises to indigenous Canadians. While not complete, the policy is a result of unprecedented co-development by self-governing indigenous governments and Canada.

This collaboration over the last two and a half years has seen a new methodology for determining the resources needed by indigenous governments. In terms of big problems, the policy is a carefully crafted, comprehensive plan that definitely addresses a host of long-standing issues in self-governing indigenous communities, such as crumbling infrastructure, under-resourced governance, and disincentives to generating own-source revenue.

Finally, the policy deals with the need to catch up on, and keep up, the funding. It is set to provide catch-up funding to fix the legacy of colonialism and the resulting gap between Yukon first nations people and Yukoners—socio-economic gaps, infrastructure gaps, education gaps, etc.

It was to help close these gaps that budget 2018 allocated $189.2 million for this current fiscal year. This is the type of funding that needs to continue on a yearly basis to catch up to other Yukoners and achieve levels comparable to Yukoners. At the same time, funding to keep up is required. This is the funding that Canada provides to maintain the status quo.

What am I recommending that budget 2019 include? There are funding methods already agreed to and new policies that will require new funding in budget 2019. They include governance, infrastructure, socio-economic gap closing, and an interim lands and resource proposal.

It is important to not forget the items in the policy that continue to be outstanding: language, culture, heritage, education, health, social development, housing, environmental management, economic development and modern treaty management. They will require funding in budget 2019.

Budgets include both expenditures and revenues. For us, there are two aspects to revenues: the own-source revenue offsets applied by Canada, and tax remedies.

Currently there's a moratorium on the clawing back of indigenous government revenues from Canada, but it ends this year. Both self-governing and indigenous governments and Canada are proposing to defer this practice until indigenous governments are properly resourced.

As part of the collaborative fiscal policy, the parties continue to discuss how to increase indigenous revenues via tax powers, as contemplated in the Kluane First Nation Self-Government Agreement, which establishes the main parameters of our right to self-govern and provide for ongoing fiscal relations with the Crown, including a framework for tax powers and tax revenue sharing.

Yukon first nations need to be properly resourced. The current federal self-governing fiscal policy process will see additional funds required for governance, land and resources, socio-economic gap closing and infrastructure. These amounts are better understood and discussed.

Funds are also needed for areas where our funding model is not completed in the collaborative policies. Canada and self-governing indigenous governments agreed that funding will be required for languages, culture, heritage, education, health, social development, housing, environmental management, economic development and modern treaties.

Ultimately, properly resourced Yukon first nations will mean a stronger Canadian economy, with more Canadians employed and more funds for buying Canadian goods and services.

Thank you for this opportunity to share my thoughts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Chief Dickson.

We will turn then to Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation, Chief Joseph.

[Chief Roberta Joseph, Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation]

[Witness speaks in Hän]

Chairman and committee members, I'd like to acknowledge that we're on the traditional territory of Kwanlin Dün and Ta'an Kwäch'än Council. I'd like to thank them for being able to conduct business on their traditional territory.

I'm Chief Roberta Joseph from Dawson City, Yukon. I'm from the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation.

I'm pleased to be here today on behalf of self-governing first nations in the Yukon to speak on the issue of treaty loan forgiveness and reimbursement. We were encouraged by the announcement in budget 2018 that Canada is committed to engaging with indigenous groups on how best to address past and present negotiation loans, including forgiveness of loans.

From our perspective, treaty loan forgiveness should extend not just to those currently in negotiations, but also to those who have agreements in place. Reimbursement of our treaty loans is an opportunity to strengthen implementation of Yukon first nations' final and self-government agreements and promote the social well-being of our people.

The requirement to repay Canada for monies we were forced to borrow to negotiate our treaties has undermined our ability to take full advantage of the opportunities we sought to create when we signed our treaties. Loan repayment would play an important role in building capacity, increasing autonomy and promoting economic development in our communities.

Budget 2019 is Canada's opportunity to realize the commitment of loan forgiveness and reimbursement. We encourage the committee to work with the department of CIRNAC to get an estimate on the outstanding loans.

This is a major good-news story. Your government would be openly acknowledged for this action by self-governing first nations in Yukon and across Canada. This is also a matter of fairness and equity. Failure to reimburse our nations would effectively penalize us for blazing the trail and taking the leap of faith necessary to conclude our agreements.

Canada's former policy requiring indigenous governments to borrow against treaty settlement monies in order to fund negotiations did not reflect an appropriate nation-to-nation relationship. Unfortunately, 20 years after our effective date, significant gaps continue to exist in our communities in the areas of infrastructure, housing, education, health, and social and economic development.

It is time for self-governing indigenous governments, Canada, and the provinces and territories to take collective action to make that promise a reality. Loan reimbursement would be a huge step in that direction. Reimbursement of the loans can occur over multiple fiscal years to lessen the impact on the federal budget. Your government will be publicly congratulated for this action. Youth, first nations, Métis and Inuit people, indigenous nations who are now on the path of self-determination may be inspired to join the family of modern treaty holders.

It is critical that treaty loan reimbursement be addressed in budget 2019. This is the Government of Canada's opportunity to make it happen. Loan repayment is an important milestone on the road to reconciliation.

Along with my presentation, I have submitted two letters: one written on October 3, 2018, to Minister Bennett from the Council of Yukon First Nations Grand Chief Peter Johnston, as well as a joint letter written on October 1, 2018, to Minister Bennett from Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in, Vuntut Gwitchin and Na-Cho Nyak Dun.

Mahsi cho.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Chief Joseph.

Turning then to Teslin Tlingit Council, Chief Sidney.

[Naa Sháade Háni Richard Sidney, Representative, Teslin Tlingit Council]

[Witness speaks in Tlingit]

I explained to you who I was. I want to thank, as my brothers and sisters have, the Tagish Kwan for allowing us to conduct business in their territory this morning.

I thank you, committee, friends, for allowing us this opportunity to appear before you this morning and provide you an opportunity to share with you our thoughts on the upcoming federal budget.

The Teslin Tlingit Council is based in and around southern Yukon. It's approximately an hour and a half to two hours directly east of us, right adjacent to the B.C.-Yukon border. We have approximately 800 citizens who essentially comprise the citizenship of our government, who live both within and outside of our traditional territory. Teslin Tlingit Council signed its final agreement with the Government of Canada and the Government of Yukon in 1993. It was one of the first four Yukon first nations to implement our agreements. The implementation started in February 1995 officially. Entrance into our agreements formed the basis of our relationship with the Governments of Canada and Yukon, enabling Teslin Tlingit Council to define its place in the Canadian fiscal federation.

The implementation of our agreements enabled our distinctive cultures, language and history to be recognized and provided Teslin Tlingit Council with legal capacity, jurisdiction and authority to develop, grow and prosper within our treaty lands and our traditional territory—again, in both Yukon and British Columbia. The agreements we signed contemplated several avenues for building fiscal resources, including financial transfer agreements, tax sharing, treaty land development, royalty sharing, and access to federal program monies for indigenous peoples in Canada.

The vision was for full participation in Canada's prosperity and growth, including removal of the Indian Act, and tax exemptions. In addition, these promises and aspirations required fiscal resources.

I have a number of recommendations with respect to the fiscal solutions. Number one, since 2015, Canada has initiated several attempts to address financial capacity shortfalls and economic and social gaps within indigenous populations, both here in the territory and at the national level.

Yukon's self-governing first nations have yet to see any money or assured access to this funding. Indigenous governments outside of Yukon—municipalities, provinces and territories—benefit directly. Yukon's self-governing first nations need assured and direct access to an enactable share of Canada's fiscal allocation. The final self-governing agreements provided financial transfer agreements and tax sharing as the essential tools to provide assured, predictable and adequate fiscal capacity. Increasing reliance on limited periods and uncertain contribution agreements and access to funding, as well as having to access monies from Yukon will create and foster dependency, not full self-determination.

Agreements recognize Teslin Tlingit Council's citizenship as distinct and different from Indian Act status and the status of registered people. Canada persists in not recognizing that Teslin Tlingit Council is responsible for its own citizens regardless of their status under the Indian Act. Teslin Tlingit Council citizens are beneficiaries of the agreements and simply cannot be ignored.

Since early 2016, Canada has developed a fiscal policy to guide its response to self-governing indigenous governments' fiscal realities.

The Teslin Tlingit Council has focused on the agreements and the implementation required under and called for by the agreements. Canada cannot focus solely on its internal fiscal policy to the detriment of addressing its obligations in a timely, enactable manner.

Healthy growth and independence at Teslin Tlingit Council and all other self-governing indigenous governments in the Yukon and Canada is recognized as the best way for reconciling our history. We're partway there, but we need Canada to take the essential measures and enable the indigenous peoples in the Yukon to be a full partner in our future for the benefit of all.

I returned as the Teslin Tlingit Council chief in 2016. This is my third term. Hopefully it will be my last term. I had the opportunity to review TTC's 20-plus years with implementation of our agreements. The fiscal and operational review demonstrated a tenuous and struggling indigenous government. Unlike the fiscal resources provided to the Yukon through devolution from Canada, most recently the devolution in 2004, the fiscal resources implementation for our final limits remains well below justifiable, demonstrated and comparable levels.

The overall vision for the final agreement was not for a handout. It was for the government to address the fiscal realities that we find ourselves in. We need fiscal relationships that are responsive, and we need the principles and objectives of the agreements to be recognized and to be fully implemented. Commitments made to our government should be honoured. All we ask for is an equitable share of the wealth this country is providing.

That's essentially who we are.

[Witness speaks in Tlingit]. Thank you very much for hearing me this morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Chief Sidney.

The last witness in this panel is Ms. McInerney, who is with the Women's Transition Home.

[Barbara McInerney, Executive Director, Women's Transition Home]

Good morning, everybody. Thank you for the invitation. This is quite a distinguished group that I'm honoured to present with.

I would like to acknowledge that I, as a settler, have the honour to work and live on the traditional land of the Kwanlin Dün First Nation and the Ta'an Kwäch'än.

My name is Barbara McInerney. I have been the executive director of the Yukon Women's Transition Home for.... Holy smokes, I'm nervous. Sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You don't need to be nervous around this bunch, Barbara.

[Barbara McInerney]

Okay.

I've been at the Women's Transition Home for over 18 years. Most of my crew have been there for between 15 and 20 years. We have a really dedicated crew. What we're finding, though, is that the millenials don't want to go into this work. We've been chronically understaffed for quite some time, which is quite a strain on everybody.

Our priority mandate is to support women and their children who are fleeing violence. It's an honour to do the work. We have been doing this work since 1981, after the amazing work of Kaushee Harris, a Taku River Tlingit woman. She passed away, tragically, before our new building was built in 1991.

We moved into our new building in 1991. It's called Kaushee's Place, for obvious reasons, and has about 18 beds and five apartments. We built a new building, with 10 apartments and offices, and moved into it in 2013. It has been named Betty's Haven, after the incredibly honourable work of Betty Sjodin.

Yukon has some of the highest rates of violence in all of Canada, especially for our indigenous women. Poverty, with the lack of affordable housing, is a huge issue for women's safety. INAC contributes to the homelessness of indigenous women because their cheques are always.... I know that a lot of efforts have been made, but we're still getting cheques that are really late. We can float women with that, but not every landlord can. We know landlords who will not rent to indigenous women because they can't afford to. I would urge the government to do more work to ensure that women's rent cheques are not late, because it does contribute to homelessness.

There are many times when our shelter is running over its capacity, and many times when our second-stage apartments have wait-lists. We have a total of three women's shelters that serve all of the Yukon and northern British Columbia. We also get women from the other territories who are coming in to get services, and we get the odd woman who is being abused and is coming up the Alaska Highway from the U.S. There is a huge range that we are serving.

Upon intake, indigenous women are asked to give their band number. This is a huge problem because it completely identifies a woman. All other people get total confidentiality at the transition home, but indigenous women do not. I've been fighting this issue since 2000 because I think it's wrong. We have to find another way to bill without it being on the backs of our indigenous women.

This fiscal year, we submitted a budget to the Yukon government that had a $400,000 deficit, so our Christmas present this year is probably going to be closing or threatening to. Our funding has been flatlined since 2011. The Yukon government will only sign a one-year agreement. Being in a unionized environment in our shop—one of the other shelters is also—it is impossible to go into bargaining with our staff in good faith not knowing what our funding is from one year to another.

The Yukon government has also imposed a heavy new financial reporting. I am all for fiscal responsibility, but to add more pressure and more required administration and capacity around finances in the way that they have is going to cripple a lot of organizations. As it is right now, we're really behind because of the new changes. My finance manager will have to go full time, and she's part time now. I don't know how I will do that, because we have a huge deficit. The financial reporting takes much longer and is causing a lot of strain for all of us.

For our building that houses the emergency shelter, we do all the maintenance. We mow the lawns; we do it all. The funding for the emergency building is through an old CMHC agreement and it's housed now through Yukon Housing Corporation. Again, I'm all for accountability, but the audits up here are costing us between $12,000 and $17,000 a year. Because of the lack of accountants here, we actually have to work with one down near Vancouver at this point. In three years, I could have redone my roof. We've been solid since 1991. We have always been in good standing. I think the money that goes to those accountants could be better used in maintaining our shelters.

We would like to call on the federal government to ensure that when territorial governments come and go, they do not continue to undermine the services that keep women and children alive and safe. Not one of our indigenous women's groups in Yukon has base funding. This is a huge issue for us because so many of us have been in this field for so long that the committee on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls asked us for recommendations. When I looked around the room, I was appalled because all the white people were paid to be there to give their recommendations, and all the indigenous women were volunteering. That's wrong.

Safe rides save lives, and with no bus now coming up the highway it is a huge issue. The women's shelters need some funding so that we can get transportation for our most vulnerable people.

In closing I want to thank you all for the opportunity, and I'm sorry for being so nervous. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You weren't nervous at all when you got rolling, Barb, not at all.

I expect it's probably okay if we go about 15 minutes over. There is nobody on the list for open mikes at the end of the session, so that will give everybody an opportunity for one seven-minute round.

We'll start with Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everybody who has come here to present today. They've been very interesting presentations.

I am very happy to see the indigenous governments here presenting on the fiscal realities of the north. I would expect that many of our politicians would struggle to explain the fiscal reality and the flow of our funding that comes from Indian Affairs or the provincial or territorial governments, in our case, to the rest of the country, because it's complicated and complex and a lot of time it doesn't work for us because the territories do not fall under Indian Affairs. Indian Affairs is mandated. It's southern based. It's based on reserves, and we kind of fall between the cracks.

I certainly applaud your efforts to move forward to be self-governing. I think that's the way of the future. I, for one, make no bones about the fact that I'd like to see Indian Affairs shut down and those revenues be provided to the indigenous governments. There is no need to have 12,000 people in Ottawa looking over our shoulders as we try to govern. We should be treated on par with everybody else who is providing governance.

I think we've made some significant strides in the last while. I am very keen to see some of the work you've done on the new fiscal models for self-governance move forward and be included in this budget.

Maybe I'll direct a question to Robert Dickson regarding the comments he made about new fiscal realities.

I don't see a submission. Is there a submission being provided to the government? I'm not sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We do have them, but they're not translated. They'll be given to members as soon as possible.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'd be very keen to see that move forward. It's broad. It covers revenues, own-source revenues, expenditure needs, social well-being, infrastructure, public housing, and a lot of things we need to tackle.

There was a budget of $189 million in the last budget. Has that money flowed yet, has that money been received?

[Chief Robert Dickson]

No, it hasn't, as far as we know.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'm trying to get an understanding of where it's at and what's going on with it. We're in the middle of October.

[Naa Sháade Háni Richard Sidney]

Yes, Teslin Tlingit Council actually had a one-on-one meeting with ADM Joe Wild and made some specific recommendations on the options for the allocation of the $189 million. We have not received any indication from the government that we'll receive any money at all from the $189 million identified in last year's budget.

The second point, regarding your assessment of how the north is being viewed with respect to any new funding that may be provided through budgets, we definitely are excluded from any of those allocations. We really have no reserves in the north. Teslin Tlingit Council actually had three Indian Act reserves in our territory, but the vehicle we created to flow funds was the financial transfer agreement process. Within the system itself, within the government, that process really hasn't been utilized.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

We have two reserves in the Northwest Territories, but they don't get funding from the federal government. There's a budget of—I did the research—about $18 billion earmarked for indigenous programming. It's not working for us. There needs to be a new mechanism in place.

Chief Roberta Joseph, regarding your point on treaty loan forgiveness, this is something that's been included in the discussions under the recognition and implementation of rights framework. It's something that I think is really exciting for most of the indigenous governments in my riding. They're seeing a change, moving away from the comprehensive claim policy to a new structure that will be based and focused on what indigenous governments need to operate, rather than a policy drafted by a government in Ottawa.

Could you talk a little about that? If it's something you support, do you think it's a good move?

[Chief Roberta Joseph]

The indigenous rights framework, from our understanding, does not fully apply to modern-day treaty and self-governing first nations.

We already have our agreements in place under section 35. It speaks to delegation of lands, law development and those kinds of things, which we already have the ability to do, as Chief Smith mentioned earlier. They developed the language act, and that's probably not the only act they have.

As well, it was mentioned this morning that we also pay property taxes. The Yukon first nations probably have the highest property taxes of all of the municipalities and villages in the Yukon. We own our lands outright, out there in the wilderness and in municipalities and villages. We have not had the opportunity to fully implement our agreements due to inadequate financial and capacity resources. That's been an ongoing issue in the implementation of our agreement.

I also wanted to touch on the new fiscal policy that Chief Dickson spoke about. That has been negotiated between CIRNAC and modern-day treaty holders, and it's been a long and rigorous process.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'm totally expecting that the funding forgiveness process will expand into the settled claims areas. I'm hoping that the discussion regarding that extinguishment of rights will also be part of it—that's something you could talk about—because that was forced on you, on everybody who signed.

I have one last question. You haven't been able to draw down on the $189 million, which is disappointing to hear. There have been commitments, in the first round of discussions at the national indigenous organizations table, of over $1.5 billion for housing. How does that impact you? I understand that AFN has been the lead for the first nations. I know that the Métis National Council didn't include the northern Métis. I believe ITK did include the Inuvialuit, so they're quite pleased.

Is that money that you're looking to draw on to help you with some of the shortages you've talked about?

[Chief Robert Dickson]

Quite often the funding set aside for indigenous governments is not available to modern treaty holders. KFN sees this with budget 2017-18 and the allocations for housing and infrastructure that we don't have access to. We continually go to the Assembly of First Nations and advocate for the Yukon.

The problem I see in the Yukon is that YTG is the middleman. It's probably the same in the other territories. The funding goes to the territorial government, and then the first nations have to go the YTG to get their portion of the funding. YTG continues to do the things they want to do without the involvement of first nations. In the Yukon we don't have reserves, so we don't have on-reserve schooling. We don't have RCMP policing or tribal policing. We don't have a bunch of those programs that are common south of 60. Our biggest problem is trying to get the funding that the south of 60 folks enjoy. YTG is still the....

We want to encourage Canada to include modern treaty holders when discussing funding with other groups, such as AFN, the Métis council, etc.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Michael probably understands this, but I don't. What's the difference in terms of the modern treaty holder?

[Chief Robert Dickson]

With regard to modern treaty holders, we have an agreement with government that sets out our funding arrangement already. That has a different recognition in the Government of Canada. We have a land claim agreement. We have a self-government agreement, which is different from first nations south of 60. They all have reserves, and we don't have those up here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

Did you want in, Chief Smith? Go ahead.

[Chief Steve Smith]

To answer your question specifically, in layman's terms it's basically the definition between settlement lands and reserve lands. In the Yukon, only a very few first nations have reserve lands that are of the typical definition in the south. When we signed our land claim and self-government agreements, ours were settlement lands, so they were land claim settlements. That, a lot of times, is really....

We get stuck in the bureaucracy when people try to provide us the funds and such. We get hooked up on it because there's just a simple definition that states we're settlement land versus reserve. They sit there and go, “Well, this was a program for indigenous reserve lands”, yet we do the same services, if not more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much. That does clear it up a lot for me.

Mr. Kelly.