Evidence of meeting #184 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was proposed.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Manuel Dussault  Senior Director, Framework Policy, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Director, Financial Stability, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Peter Fragiskatos  London North Centre, Lib.
Yuki Bourdeau  Senior Advisor, Capital Markets Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Eleanor Ryan  Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Jean-François Girard  Director, Consumer Affairs, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Brigitte Goulard  Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Kim Rudd  Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
Mark Schaan  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada
Ian Wright  Director, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Department of Finance
Darryl C. Patterson  Director, Corporate, Insolvency and Competition Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Martin Simard  Director, Copyright and Trademark Policy, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Andrea Flewelling  Senior Policy Advisor, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Patrick Blanar  Senior Policy Analyst, Patent Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Dale MacMillan  Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer, National Research Council of Canada
Christopher Johnstone  Director General, National Programs and Business Services, National Research Council of Canada
Eric Grant  Director, Community Lands Development, Lands and Environmental Management, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Leane Walsh  Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Susan Waters  Director General, Lands and Environmental Management Branch, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Michèle Govier  Senior Director, Trade Rules, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Katharine Funtek  Executive Director, Trade Controls Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Bev Shipley  Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
Nicole Giles  Director, International Trade and Finance, Assistant Deputy Minister's Office, Department of Finance
Deirdre Kent  Director General, International Assistance Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mark Lusignan  Director General, Grants and contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Michelle Kaminski  Director, Office of Innovative Finance, Grants and Contributions Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Chantal Larocque  Deputy Director, Development Finance, Grants and Contributions Financial Policy, Foreign Affairs Canada
Danielle Bélanger  Director, Gender-Based Analysis Plus and Strategic Policy, Policy and External Relations Directorate, Status of Women Canada
Alison McDermott  General Director, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Derek Armstrong  Executive Director, Results Division, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Lori Straznicky  Executive Director, Pay Equity Task Team, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Don Graham  Senior Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister, Compensation and Labour Relations Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Bruce Kennedy  Manager, Pay Equity Task Team, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Richard Stuart  Executive Director, Expenditure Analysis and Compensation Planning, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Colin Spencer James  Senior Director, Social Development Policy, Strategic and Service Policy Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Andrew Brown  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy Directorate, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Rutha Astravas  Director, Employment Insurance Policy, Special Benefits Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Charles Philippe Rochon  Senior Policy Analyst, Labour Standards and Wage Earner Protection Program, Workplace Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you all.

Mr. Kmiec

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I just want to go back to two things. With a typical bank, when would a complaint go to this external complaints body, and who would take it there? Would it be the bank or the consumer?

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

What normally happens is the customer complains directly to the bank. It could be to a staff member. It could be to a manager. We call that the first level of the complaint. I think the goal is for the bank to resolve those complaints with a customer at that first instance.

If a complaint is not resolved, it could be bumped up to some level within the organization, and a second set of eyes within the bank would look at it. Normally about 90% of complaints are resolved within the bank. There are some complaints for which the customer is not happy with the outcome recommended by the bank. In such cases, it is the customer who decides whether they want to take that to the external complaint body or accept the bank's recommendation.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

In that process, it is the customer who can go to an external body and say, “I pick this external body to review,” and now you're proposing these different rules by which they would report the complaint, make it public and just set some standards for this.

4:35 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

Right. If I may, it is indeed the customer who chooses whether to take the complaint to the external complaints body. If I could clarify one aspect though, each bank must be a member of one external complaints body, so the customer goes to the external complaints body that the bank is a member of.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

The customer doesn't get to pick. The bank has already picked it because if they have to be a member of just one....

I have a constituent. I know a got an email on something like this, so I just looked up her complaint about the complaint process. If the chartered bank is a member of one complaint body, the customer has no choice after going through the internal process but to deal with the body that the bank has already chosen.

Is that a competitive process for the banks typically? Are these external complaints bodies businesses? Are they not-for-profits? Are they just a panel of people?

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

There are two external complaint bodies that have been approved by the minister for the banks to be members of, and each of them has been reviewed by the commissioner and the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada. They have to meet standards set out in the legislation and the regulations. Once they're approved, they have to continue to meet the standards.

They could be a non-profit, and I do believe one of them is.

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

They could be a business corporation, and I believe one of them is. There are different models, but they all have to meet the same standards.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

The same standards, right, but if the bank chooses not to be a member of more than one, then the consumer doesn't have a choice. They have to go to the one the bank has selected for whatever reason. Now you have some rules that dictate how this external complaint body is supposed to work, but the consumer doesn't have a choice in this. They have to go with the one the bank—

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Unless the bank has more than one....

Is that typical or is it atypical for banks to have more than one?

4:40 p.m.

Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eleanor Ryan

No, I'm sorry. Each bank may be a member of only one external complaints body, and then the consumer uses that external complaints body.

To confirm, it is correct, as you indicate, that the consumer does not choose which body to use.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

It just seems to me that it doesn't really make much of a difference whether that's an internal bank process or external because it's still the same.... The bank has preselected a group of people to do it already. They may have rules upon them, but OSFI has rules upon banks, how they behave, and the rules that they abide by. It seems like a lot of shifting around, but it doesn't achieve the goal of giving the consumer more control about where the complaint goes.

I'm going to move on to something else.

Ms. Goulard, you answered Mr. Fergus' question on the number of penalties. You skated around a bit, but you said that a number of compliance agreements were established with the banks.

Can you tell us more about that?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Brigitte Goulard

You are very astute. You noticed that I was skating around a bit as to the number of penalties we issued. The reason is that at this time some of them may be appealed, and others are just being drafted. It is for reasons of administrative law that I did not want to provide a specific number.

To get back to your question, I would say that at this time we can conclude compliance agreements with certain banks when they breach the law. In that way we want to ensure that they put in place the necessary controls and that they comply with the law.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Very well, thank you.

November 5th, 2018 / 4:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Brigitte Goulard

I fudged a bit, but did I answer your question?

I'd like to give you more information in reply to your question about external complaint processing organizations. Our role is a supervisory role. The situation is a bit different when an individual submits his problem to the bank only. If he or she calls on one of the external complaint processing bodies we supervise to ensure that certain standards are respected, the process is a bit different.

Moreover, if there is a breach of the law, the consumer can submit a complaint to us on that. We can't do anything if a person is upset because a branch is dirty, for instance, but if there is a possible violation of one of the provisions of the act, the consumer can send us a complaint. We can then launch an investigation if that proves to be necessary.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Okay.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

The question that begs to be asked is how many times that has happened last year or in the past five years. Can you give us some idea?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Brigitte Goulard

You want to know what happened...

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Can you give us some idea of the number of times Canadians resorted to an external complaint processing body, and then turned to you?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Brigitte Goulard

I do not have that figure, but I could send it to you. It may be difficult, because in some cases people come to us without telling us that they already submitted their complaint to an external complaint processing body. Sometimes they contact us before calling on an external complaint processing body. When the complaint is not necessarily linked to a breach of the legislation, we refer them to...

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I expect that you have data on the number of times people submitted complaints to the system, as per the process, either with the banks...

4:45 p.m.

Deputy Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Brigitte Goulard

I have data on the number of complaints we receive every year and on the topic of those complaints, but I do not have data specifying which complaints went through the external system before being submitted to us. It will be my pleasure to provide that information to you.