Evidence of meeting #19 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was income.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
1:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I can't. If we're saying at the earliest possible date, who determines what the earliest is? We're leaving the CRA to actually give the documents...if they determine it's in late September.... I'm asking them on a specific—
1:40 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I am asking for some very specific documents. I'm not asking for all the documents that Canada Revenue Agency has received. I'm talking about correspondence between Canada Revenue Agency and KPMG relating only to the Isle of Man scheme. That's all.
This isn't tens of thousands of pages of documents, but a very specific request. These documents are probably relatively easy to find now thanks to search engines that can find the emails that have been sent and all the rest. We aren't living in a time when there were boxes of documents that are now in the archives and when you had to spend weeks looking for what you wanted.
I would like this motion to be carried so that we can obtain as much information as possible. If we could have partial information by May 18, knowing that additional information will be provided later on, that would be even better.
Still, we need this specific information to target our questions to the minister.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I read a motion here that wasn't quite what you said. Your motion really would be that the documents be provided to the committee on May 18. Am I correct on that?
1:45 p.m.
NDP
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Mr. Chair, is it possible to bring an amendment at this stage?
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
I think we're looking for an agreement here based on what we talked about yesterday. The dispute seems to be that everything else is in order with the exception that Mr. Caron is saying May 18, and you folks are saying something different. So the motion that's on the floor I believe includes May 18. If you're moving an amendment, “at the earliest possible date”, the committee, I think, is open to it.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
The amendment would read at the end, “at the earliest possible date”.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I would like to know if the Liberal Party has other ideas to further dilute the motions and ensure that they have less and less impact. It would be helpful to have all of its arguments on this.
In the spirit of co-operation, we have already agreed to two of the proposed amendments. We agreed to change the word “compel” to “request” and to request information that is not subject to section 241. We did that in a spirit of co-operation.
We are now being presented with a third amendment that we hadn't heard about until now. If the government party still has other ideas to dilute it even more, to make sure that we don't get the information in time and that we don't have what we need to get to the bottom of things, I'd like a list of its amendments to try to make the motion and the efforts less and less effective.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chair, let's set the record straight.
No one on this side of the room is refusing to co-operate here. All we are explaining to the committee is that there is a system. We have been asking the agency for emails for 17 years. It's a matter of a system. The experts are telling us that this takes time.
The members on this side of the room want the same thing as our colleagues on the other side, which is to shed light on this issue. Some people are claiming today that we are not acting in good faith because we are explaining that the systems need time to find the documentation to be
responsive to the requests made by our colleagues. Anyone would understand that if you're asking today for 17 years of emails from an agency, that they need the time with the proper system to be responsive. That's what we're doing, but I will not accept the argument from colleagues that we're not being responsive. We're responsive, but we need to deal with the systems that are in place. We want to give a full answer, but we need the time to do it. That's what the department says.
There's no portraying us as not collaborating. We are co-operating. We checked the systems and people are telling us they need more time. That's the simple answer.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Forgive me if I don't trust what has been said and if I am not convinced that the government is fully willing to get to the bottom of things. We have introduced a motion asking that the KPMG situation be studied, that some of its representatives, senior officials from the Agency and the minister be summoned. The motion was defeated by a motion that excludes the presence of the minister and was amended. Subsequently, in the House, the government claimed that it was a Liberal member who introduced the motion to study the KPMG situation, in order to show the good faith of the government. Forgive me if I don't trust the Liberal Party's goodwill and good faith.
What I am suggesting will enable us to have the information we need to focus the questions for the minister. If this motion is diluted—as previous motions have been—I sincerely hope that they will not take advantage of the opportunity to allow the study or investigation to fall through the cracks, to move on to something else and to avoid getting to the bottom of things. That may well be the case because the Liberal Party has the majority.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Mr. Chair, I would like to move the amendment “at the earliest possible date”. That's the most practical step to take to go forward. We do not want to dilute the motion ahead. We have the minister coming to our committee.
We want to get to the bottom of the issues that have been raised and ask the pertinent questions. At the same time, we are asking CRA and officials, related entities, for a lot of information. This is the most practical measure that we can ask for, in terms of getting the information we need.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON
Can we have the amendment read one more time and then vote on it?
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
The motion reads: “That the committee request the Canada Revenue Agency to provide all written correspondence—including, but not limited to letters and emails, between the Canada Revenue Agency and the KPMG...accounting firm, issued between January 1st 1999 and May 5th 2016, regarding the Isle of Man tax plan and any matters related to that plan, that is not subject to section 241 of the Income Tax Act, and that the documents be provided to the committee at the earliest possible date.”
1:50 p.m.
Liberal