Evidence of meeting #196 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was barbados.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Marley  Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual
Toby Sanger  Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness
Kim Rudd  Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.
Peter Fragiskatos  London North Centre, Lib.
Blake Richards  Banff—Airdrie, CPC

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll call the meeting to order as we look further at Bill C-82, An Act to implement a multilateral convention to implement tax treaty related measures to prevent base erosion and profit shifting.

We have two witnesses: Patrick Marley, partner and co-chair of taxation at Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP; and Toby Sanger, executive director of Canadians for Tax Fairness.

I assume you probably have opening remarks, and then we'll go to questions.

Who wants to start?

Go ahead, Toby. You've been here before.

I don't know if you have ever been here, Patrick.

February 7th, 2019 / 11:05 a.m.

Patrick Marley Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

No, I haven't.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

All right, it's a new experience, a new day.

Go ahead, Toby.

11:05 a.m.

Toby Sanger Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

First of all, I'd like to express my condolences at the loss of a colleague and friend of many of you, former Ottawa Centre MP Paul Dewar. Paul was the same age as me. He was a neighbour and a friend. He always built on the positive side of people and situations all through his life of public service. He was devoted to the less fortunate right through to his final days, and I hope he inspires many others to do the same.

This legislation, Bill C-82, which would enable Canada and other countries to effectively implement wholesale changes to their numerous bilateral tax treaties is, in general, very much a positive step forward to reduce the hundreds of billions in revenues that are lost annually around the world from aggressive international tax avoidance, primarily by larger corporations. This represents approximately $1 billion in Canada, if you include everything.

This multilateral instrument is the culmination of five years work through the OECD's base erosion and profit shifting initiative. It's an efficient way of consistently adjusting the thousands of bilateral tax treaties that have been signed between nations in order to implement a number of action measures of the whole BEPS process. By having a generally consistent set of measures, it will limit but not entirely eliminate the practice of treaty shopping that many large corporations have engaged in to avoid taxes and drive a race to the bottom.

The introduction of these changes will be especially beneficial for lower-income countries by strengthening the rules for taxation based on the source of the economic activity and not the putative residence, often in the tax haven of the corporation. It will limit tax avoidance through hybrid mismatch arrangements that exploit differences in tax treatments, treaty abuse through double non-taxation, and the avoidance of permanent establishment. These are all positive measures.

At the same time, there are some concerns about the part IV provisions for mandatory binding arbitration, as these opaque and secret panels rarely favour source countries, and they should consider not opting into them.

Article 17 also has some problematic measures, and countries should consider making a reservation under this section.

While this bill and the 2015 BEPS initiative that it stems from are positive, they are limited. They are all about patching a system that has a lot of problems, and they are now about to be eclipsed by much more important and fundamental changes that need to be made to the international corporate tax system.

Two weeks ago, following meetings with almost 100 countries in Paris, the OECD issued a policy note entitled “Addressing the Tax Challenges of the Digital Economy”. In the words of Alex Cobham, chief executive of the Tax Justice Network, “The three pages of text in this...policy note may be more significant than the thousands that made up the BEPS project.”

The archaic arm's-length transfer pricing system that underlies our international corporate tax system, which this bill is trying to patch up in different ways, is so broken and ineffective for our new economy that major countries around the world, including the United States, the U.K., France, Germany and others are already leapfrogging it with a range of different measures to tax large digital corporations using different approaches based on their actual economic activity in their country.

National revenue authorities have found that the transfer pricing approach also enables traditional and resource sector corporations such as Cameco to easily avoid billions in tax. There has been a case of CRA taking Cameco to court, but the courts have sometimes sided with the companies over transfer pricing.

What we ultimately need to do is to move to a unitary international corporate tax system with an apportionment of corporate profits to different countries based on their share of sales, payroll and/or other factors, preferably with a minimum corporate tax rate. This is a very straightforward system, and it's exactly what we have in place in Canada to apportion corporate profits for tax purposes between provinces. It's also the system used by American states and other federal countries to apportion corporate profit. We have this in place within Canada and other countries. We need to move to this globally as well.

In addition to its simplicity, the beauty of this approach is that a global agreement isn't necessary to proceed. It's preferable that Canada could move forward in this way, just as the United States, the U.K. and other European countries are doing.

The other beauty of this approach is that it would increase tax revenues from multinational corporations by about 33% to 50% according to the IMF, and by significant amounts for lower-income countries, which are the ones most harmed by the existing system.

In conclusion, this bill is a positive step, but we can and must take much bigger steps forward to develop a more equitable and functional international corporate tax system, and it doesn't need to be that complicated. It's the smaller and medium-sized businesses that lose out, mostly from the international corporate tax system that we have right now. They often pay a higher rate of tax than do the large corporations that are able to exploit the system that exists right now.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you, Mr. Sanger.

Mr. Marley, the floor is yours. I believe you've given out a paper. Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

Thank you for having me here today. I just want to start by saying that I, too, generally support Bill C-82 and the ratification of the MLI in Canada. However, I do have some important concerns that I want to mention to you with respect to the process and manner in which it's ratified and adopted in Canada. I'm going to break that down into four points. I'll touch on each of them in more detail.

The first is on the principal purpose test, which I think is one of the most significant aspects of the multilateral instrument. We're in dire need of more guidance on how that's going to apply in Canada. Because it's the result of an OECD project, where they strived to get consensus among a broad group of nations, the text is very broad and ambiguous, and the examples that the OECD has provided give very little practical guidance as to how it's going to work in practice.

In contrast, when Canada introduced the general anti-avoidance rule domestically, the CRA, at the same time, came out with a detailed information circular, going through different examples in how they would apply in Canada. I think more guidance is needed on the principal purpose test, particularly with respect to private equity and other collective investments, which is an area that the OECD has struggled with in terms of how that test should apply to collective investors. Really, there's a huge amount of capital that gets invested into Canada that way.

The second point is that I think Canada should be opting into article 7(4). We've currently reserved on that. I'll touch on why it's inappropriate to not have article 7(4) applying, and, really, the double tax or the unfairness that could result without that.

My third point is that Canada should continue to reserve on all of the changes to the permanent establishment threshold. I think that's consistent with the approach Canada has taken to date, and it's really for two reasons. One is that what we have now, in terms of when you have a permanent establishment, is effectively a bright-line test. It's easy to understand. It's well recognized. What the changes bring in the permanent establishment test is a lot of uncertainty, ambiguity, and, really, the ability for countries to argue that there's a permanent establishment when otherwise there might not have been. That, again, can lead to a potential explosion in tax disputes among countries, and could have negative implications for Canadian revenue.

The last point I was going to make is with respect to binding arbitration. I think we should continue to push for binding arbitration in as many treaties as we can. Our firm is perhaps the largest tax litigation disputes firm in the country. I can say, from working at Osler for the past 20 years, the amount of tax disputes in the country have really continued to expand year after year. Binding arbitration is really an effective process for resolving disputes among countries on allocating taxing rights and who should have the right to tax different countries.

To turn back to my first point on the need for more guidance on the principal purpose test, again, the test applies if one of the principal purposes of an investment is to avoid tax. It's often difficult to determine what is a purpose versus a principal purpose, let alone what all of the principal purposes are and whether tax avoidance was a principal purpose. Particularly, as I said, with private equity or other investments, I'll just give a quick example, obviously oversimplified, to illustrate that, together with, in my view, the need for article 7(4) to be applicable.

If you have two investors, one in the U.S. and one in India, each wanting to invest collectively into different countries, including Canada, what will generally happen in this example is the U.S. investor would not want to invest through an Indian company, the Indian investor would not want to invest through a U.S. company. What they would often do is form a holding company, in a third country, to invest collectively. That serves a number of business purposes, including raising larger pools of capital to make larger investments in, say, mines or other development projects.

In my example, if the U.S. and the Indian companies invest, say, in a Luxembourg holding company, the Luxembourg holding company, in turn, could invest in Canada or other jurisdictions around the world. In that simple example, under our current system, if Canada pays a dividend to the Luxembourg company, we would have a 5% withholding tax, which is the same withholding tax that would apply if the Canadian company paid directly to the U.S. company. However, it's different from what would apply if it paid a dividend directly to the Indian company, because we have a 15% withholding tax rate under the Canada-India treaty.

What happens under the MLI is that if the principal purpose test applies—if you determine, in my example, that tax avoidance was the purpose of using this Luxembourg company—then treaty benefits are denied. There's a 25% withholding rate applicable on dividends out of Canada, which is more than what would have applied if either the Indian or U.S. companies had invested directly. Article 7(4) turns off that tap, or allows Canada, in this example, to apply a 5% or 15% withholding tax rate rather than revert to a 25% rate, particularly if it was as a result of commercial reasons that the Indian and U.S. companies invested together.

Admittedly, that's an overly simplified example. What typically would happen is that you'd have a larger number of jurisdictions of investors. Obviously, the U.S. is a major capital-exporting country, so it's not uncommon for large pools of U.S. investments to come into Canada. It's often commingled with investors in Europe or Asia or other jurisdictions. Because we have 93 tax treaties, in most cases the ultimate investors are in one of those 93 countries. That's where the largest capital pools are.

I'll turn now to the “permanent establishment” changes. As I mentioned, if we opt in to that change, it would have a permanent effect, because the election is irreversible, and it would apply to a vast number of treaties. As I believe Stephanie and Trevor mentioned two days ago, Canada might win or lose on that. To give a quick example, in the resource sector right now, resource companies in Canada can sell their resources around the world and pay taxes in Canada based on not having permanent establishments in those other countries. If we were to opt in to that test, it would allow foreign countries in Asia or Europe or other jurisdictions to potentially tax some of Canada's resource profits by arguing that those resource companies have permanent establishments around the world in their jurisdictions based on facilitating contracts or facilitating access to the local markets. It creates significant uncertainty. The taxpayer will always lose, because they'd have to file returns in more jurisdictions, and potentially pay taxes in more jurisdictions, but Canada could lose because it could be ceding taxing rights to other jurisdictions.

As well, because it's such a fundamental change and is irreversible, in my view it should have parliamentary approval; an order in council and subsequent governments should not be allowed to make those changes. As we stand now, any significant changes to tax treaties go through Parliament. In my view, removing that reservation on the permanent establishment changes is of such significance that it should be something for Parliament to decide, and not be done by order in council.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Patrick. If that was a simplified example, I don't know whether I would really want to see a complicated one. It's obviously a complicated system.

Thank you both for that.

We'll turn now to questions, beginning with Ms. Rudd.

11:15 a.m.

Kim Rudd Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Thank you for your presentation. For some of us it's fascinating stuff.

I'll start with you, Patrick, with regard to one of your comments. Canada has decided to adopt some of the articles and provisions and hold back on others, which I would frame as a prudent approach. As we adopt them, they become permanent; we have no choice. We're in the game, if you will, by taking them. In your comments about some of the guidance, that you feel more guidance is required in some of the areas of those provisions and articles, I think it's really important to hear from folks like you. I'm very familiar with Osler's work and with how they are one of the foremost firms dealing with these disputes.

Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about one of the mechanisms that you think might be helpful, as each of these articles or provisions is looked at, in terms of whether or not it is in Canada's best interest to adopt them, and about what process you think might be useful for you and Toby and others to provide advice and counsel on that.

11:20 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

Sure.

First, in terms of which provisions Canada should adopt, some of them are mandatory, so—

11:20 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

11:20 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

—I think that's kind of been decided already. Others are optional. I think your question is focusing more on the optional ones.

11:20 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

Correct.

11:20 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

My point on the guidance was really about the mandatory ones. That's what I wanted to confirm, because a limitation-on-benefits rule is easier to apply objectively—you know when it applies—but it's much more complicated and, therefore, it's generally done on a bilateral basis. That's the approach the U.S. has taken, and that's in large part why the U.S. has not signed on to the multi-level instrument at all.

Canada and a number of other countries have gone with the much more subjective, ambiguous and difficult to understand, but much easier to draft, principal purpose test. That's why I'm saying we need more examples of when the principal purpose test would apply. I think the OECD's were limited, because they wanted consensus among members and all members to be able to read each example in whichever way they wanted, to determine whether they wanted it to apply or not.

In my view, Canada should use much more difficult, real-life examples, to be able to then ask if there is a certain amount of substance required for this rule not to apply. What can businesses look to in determining whether it will apply or not?

I think a quick example is with collective investors. If there were any sort of threshold, would it be enough if 99% of investors had identical treaty benefits? Is 50% enough? Is there anything below 100% that would be sufficient not to apply the rule? If it requires 100%, I think it would be helpful if Canada at least said that it's 100%. That way, taxpayers would know to invest in other countries and to avoid Canada. They'd at least get a sense of what their after-tax returns would be. After-tax returns are quite simple: they are just your revenues, costs and taxes. If you take one of those three factors, the tax part, and make it unclear what taxes are going to apply, either on distributions or on a sale, then investors won't know how to properly value that investment.

11:20 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

Okay, thank you.

You mentioned article 7, paragraph 4, as something that is of concern to you. The way I'm reading it, through all of this wonderful research we're able to get from the Library of Parliament and other places, is that the principal purpose test is really to prevent treaty shopping and abuse. That is the intent of it. Could you elaborate? I think you're suggesting that the principal purpose test doesn't do that.

11:20 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

To clarify, I'll go back to my example, and I'll try to make it—

11:20 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

The Luxembourg example?

11:20 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

Yes, the Luxembourg example.

You're absolutely right. If it's determined that one of the principal purposes, in that example, for using a Luxembourg holding company, is to invest into Canada, the principal purpose test turns off treaty benefits under the Canada-Luxembourg tax treaty. For dividends, Canada would impose a 25% withholding-tax rate on dividends to Luxembourg. Article 7(4) says that even if we're applying the principal purpose test, countries like Canada are nevertheless allowed to apply whatever withholding tax rate would be reasonable in the circumstances, rather than applying our full 25% withholding-tax rate.

If your ultimate investors in this example could have been entitled to either a 5% or 15% rate, it would be reasonable in the circumstances for the CRA to apply either a 5% or a 15% withholding rate, rather than the 25% withholding rate, which is what I think we have under Bill C-82.

11:25 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

The presentation we had on Tuesday really delineated between the TIEAs and the tax convention treaties. I guess the MLI does not apply to the TIEAs. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about those differences. When I was listening to your presentation, I felt that maybe it was a bit conflated, but I could be wrong.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Toby Sanger

Sure. I could speak a little bit to it, but my main point here is that this is patching up a system that has a lot of holes in it, and we need to move towards a new system in the broader sense of taxing international corporations in this way.

I'm sorry—

11:25 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

No, I'm sure someone else will answer the question.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadians for Tax Fairness

Toby Sanger

—but I didn't follow the presentation on Tuesday.

11:25 a.m.

Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.

Kim Rudd

No, I just didn't have much time to frame it, so I'll pass.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

Mr. Kmiec.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Mr. Marley, first, at the very end of your presentation, you talked about resource companies that sell their commodity product worldwide. Is there a possibility in the permanent establishment test provisions that if we opt in or stop withdrawing from those provisions, those companies could be taxed in the future on that?

Can you just elaborate a little bit more? Which articles are you speaking of specifically? There are the optional ones in articles 10, 12 and 13, but if there are others, can you just explain how that might work if we were ever to opt in?

That's the first part of my question. I want to talk to you more about what you said about how Parliament should be the final arbitrator on whether we should be participants in it rather than it going through the order in council process. I'd like to hear you talk more about how this could potentially affect resource companies.

11:25 a.m.

Co-Chair of Tax Group, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

Patrick Marley

Sure, and again, I'm just using resource companies as a simple example—