Finance Committee on May 6th, 2019

[Karen Hall]

That provision is there to allow flexibility in the future. The strategy itself includes a dashboard of indicators. We have the market basket measure of the official poverty line as sort of the headline or the first among equals of the indicators. There are 12 other indicators that are laid out in the strategy itself that provide a view of the multi-dimensional nature of poverty, ranging from food security, literacy, asset resilience, etc. Those indicators together provide a fuller picture of poverty across Canada and complement the market basket measure.

The provision in the act allows specification of additional measures to be in legislation. For the moment, the market basket measure is specified, and then we'll have the dashboard of indicators. It's intended that the dashboard will be made public and will be available on the Statistics Canada website in due course.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

So the dashboard presents indicators based on a set of data that can be used to assess the poverty line and the degree to which objectives are being achieved, and not just indicators pertaining to the consumer basket. Is that correct?

[Hugues Vaillancourt]

Yes. It reflects the fact that a person's income is not the only factor to consider in determining the poverty line. There are several factors, and the purpose of the dashboard is to provide more information on the various aspects of the poverty problem.

Further to my colleague's remarks, I would note that the bill provides a schedule but that, for the moment, only the official poverty line is contemplated in the bill.

[Karen Hall]

If I may, I'd like to pull out my copy of the strategy, which we'd be pleased to provide to the committee. Page 14 of the English version of the strategy specifies the full list of indicators. First there's the market basket measure, and then there are four indicators for each of the three pillars of the strategy.

The dignity pillar, which focuses on lifting Canadians out of poverty by ensuring that basic needs are met, includes food security, unmet health care needs, unmet housing needs and chronic homelessness, and deep income poverty.

Under the opportunity and inclusion pillar, the indicators relate to helping Canadians join the middle class by promoting full participation in society and equality of opportunity. Those indicators focus on literacy and numeracy, youth engagement, relative low income and the share of the population in the bottom 40% of the income share.

The third pillar focuses on resilience and security, supporting the middle class by protecting Canadians from falling into poverty and by supporting income security and resilience. The indicators under that pillar include the median hourly wage, poverty entry and exit rates, the average poverty gap and asset resilience.

It's intended that all of these will be made public. It's all existing Statistics Canada data with existing methodologies, but it will be grouped together in a hub or a single spot on the Statistics Canada website that will facilitate analysis. The intention is that the full datasets will be available so that those who are interested can drill down and build tables, compare data and have an opportunity to really get into the data to undertake analysis to the extent that they would like to do that.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you. We'd appreciate it if you could provide that information or the link to where we can find it.

We'll now go to Mr. Fragiskatos and then back to Mr. Poilievre.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the officials.

Is Canada alone in putting in place the market basket measure as a measure of poverty? In other words, have other countries used it as a measure of poverty?

[Karen Hall]

The market basket measure is a made-in-Canada measure focused on the Canadian context and circumstances.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

In taking a made-in Canada-approach, does it reflect the fact that we've never really had an official poverty line in Canada?

[Karen Hall]

I think it's fair to say that the market basket measure provides a view into what's required for a modest but basic standard of living in Canada. To date, there has not been an official poverty line for Canada, and in the poverty reduction strategy and in the legislation the official poverty line has been identified with the market basket measure.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

When countries don't have an official poverty line, what are some of the challenges this presents for social policy, specifically policies meant to address the problem of poverty? What challenges result from having a patchwork quilt, so to speak, where we know what poverty looks like in one part of the country but not in other parts? Without a set definition, I would assume that it becomes much more difficult to address the problem of poverty, does it not?

[Karen Hall]

The measures that we have, the three main measures of income—the LIM which is a relative measure, the LICO, which is a slightly different type of measure related to the relative affordability of housing, shelter, and one additional measure—provide a relative view into what Canadians can and can't purchase. I think the market basket measure does provide a view that is geographically more sensitive. The LICO is available for seven different community sizes, but the market basket measure gives a very specialized view of the cost of living across the country from, say, a community in Alberta of less than 30,000 people, all the way to Vancouver.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

When you say “geographically more sensitive”, I assume that this would help us understand what the experience of poverty looks like in London, Ontario, compared to Montreal, compared to Vancouver, compared to rural and remote parts of the country. We can have a more accurate understanding of what poverty really looks like and the experience of it for people going through it, whereas before we couldn't really come to such a view.

What we're measuring here are the essentials necessary for a dignified life, yes?

[Karen Hall]

Yes. The strategy includes a graph of the market basket measure and the cost of living for the basket in the regions across Canada. We see in rural Quebec that this basket is about $32,000 for a family of four. In Alberta communities of under 30,000 people, that same basket costs $40,777. It certainly does give a sense of the disparity and the amount of income that's required to fund the same standard of living across the country.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay, we can compare and contrast now in a very serious way, in ways that we could not before.

My last question for you is this: Where are we in terms of fighting poverty? Statistics Canada recently came out with some figures. Poverty is on the decline. Is that correct?

[Karen Hall]

Yes, the most recent Canadian income survey results were released a few months ago, and those results indicated that the poverty rate in Canada had fallen to 9.5%, which is the lowest.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That's the lowest we've seen. Is that correct?

[Karen Hall]

That's the lowest we've seen, yes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The Canada child benefit has had a dramatic and very positive effect on making this happen. Is that correct?

[Karen Hall]

The Statistics Canada release indicated quite clearly that the Canada child benefit has played a very important role.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Can you tell me what we know as a result of the fact that it's a means-tested policy that's tax-free? This obviously puts more money in people's pockets and therefore allows families that have dealt with the problem of poverty to lift themselves up, yes?

[Karen Hall]

The CCB is income tested, and it provides additional resources to low-income families. That is the case.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Finally, refresh my memory on the universal child care benefit, the predecessor to the CCB. There was a tax applied. Is that correct? It was not tax-free.

[Karen Hall]

The universal child care benefit was taxable, yes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.