Finance Committee on May 27th, 2019

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Sorry, you said for statistical items it will be the chief statistician. Would the chief statistician decide what goes in the basket or just decide on the methodological system for calculating the line?

[Karen Hall]

Statistics Canada is responsible for the statistical methodology and working closely with ESDC officials to determine what should be in the basket. For example—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Who would decide what goes in the basket?

[Karen Hall]

For example, say we know that there needs to be a measure for transportation, as I think I spoke about a couple of weeks ago. The question of whether there should be a transportation measure in the basket is a policy question. Once it's determined that there should be a measure of transportation, then that will go to Statistics Canada to determine if that should be a Ford Focus, a Cavalier, another type of vehicle, or if it should be the weighted average of the five most popular cars, and whether it should be five or eight years old. That is the province of Statistics Canada.

Again, it is based on consultation, and there will be significant transparency about the process.

The consultation has been undertaken. There have been six different processes that have spoken with provinces and territories, with experts and with people with lived experience of poverty. There's been an “ask me anything” and a broader public consultation.

The results are going to be made public all the way along. We'll have a “what we heard” report that will be released shortly by Statistics Canada. It will sum up the results of the consultation.

There will be a validation exercise, we expect, where the results will be put forward for Canadians so that we can seek their input. The final methodology will be released at the time the new market basket measure is released, around the time of the Canadian income survey, in February of next year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Just to be helpful here, in terms of the policy question that I think Mr. Poilievre is trying to get to, would it be the ESDC minister's decision on the policy on what's in the basket? Who makes the ultimate decision about what's in the basket?

[Karen Hall]

The ultimate decision will be with officials. We will keep the minister informed, and the decisions will be with officials.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

There are 23,000 employees at ESDC. Who is the decider on this?

[Karen Hall]

As I said previously, it will be the chief statistician, and then the deputy minister at ESDC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ultimately, somebody somewhere has to sign off on it, so who would that be? Would it be the deputy? Would it be the minister? Would it be a director general in charge of food baskets? Somebody somewhere has to sign off on it somehow.

[Karen Hall]

Yes, well I'm the director general who's responsible for the poverty reduction area at ESDC, so I would be one of the signators, as would Hugues, along the way, as the decisions are going along. Then they would go along potentially north of me to the deputy. The intention is that we will keep the minister informed, but the decisions will rest with officials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Can I confirm that the final decision will rest with the deputy minister of ESDC on what is and what is not in the basket? Do we have that right?

[Karen Hall]

The overall policy direction, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

No, I'm not looking for the policy direction. You have a basket—here it is—and you have a bunch of people debating what should be in that basket. At the end of the day, one person is going to have to make a final decision, unless it's going to be solved by a vote or a show of hands. Somebody's going to have to say, “I am the man”—or the woman—“who says product x needs to be in the basket.” Are you saying that that person will be the deputy minister of Employment and Social Development Canada?

[Karen Hall]

Yes, that decision will rest with officials.

Yes, it will be the deputy, and we will keep the minister informed, but the decision will rest with the deputy.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Did you want in, Mr. Dusseault?

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

I was just saying that it took time, but we got it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

There was good discussion.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

NDP-23 is inadmissible as it requires a royal recommendation. I will go through the reasons, Mr. Dusseault.

Clause 315 of Bill C-97 proposes the poverty reduction act. Amendment NDP-23 seeks to increase the maximum number of members on the national advisory council on poverty.

House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 772:

Since an amendment may not infringe upon the financial initiative of the Crown, it is inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects or purposes or relaxes the conditions and qualifications specified in the royal recommendation.

In the opinion of the chair, increasing the maximum number of members on the national advisory council on poverty would impose a charge on the public treasury and alter the terms and conditions of the royal recommendation. Therefore, I rule the amendment inadmissible.

Turning to PV-6, it's deemed moved. Are there any comments?

Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, I believe we touched on this issue earlier. I wanted to perhaps clarify, as my colleague stated, that the clause outlining the establishment of the national advisory council on poverty already includes the language that a member with particular responsibilities for children's issues will be one of the eight to 10 members appointed, making amendment PV-6 unnecessary and redundant.

The language of proposed subsection 9(1), on the national advisory council on poverty, states that the council shall consist of eight to 10 members, including a chairperson, and a member with particular responsibilities for children's issues.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It is six o'clock.

Pierre, do you have long descriptions on your amendments? You have three of them. I'm just wondering if we could complete division 20, so we don't have to call back Ms. Hall and Mr. Vaillancourt tomorrow morning at 8:45, because that's when we start.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

It will take 5 to 10 minutes at the very most, depending on how lively the debate is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll try. Are we okay to go 10 minutes, folks?

Okay, we'll go for 10 minutes.

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I will be brief.

You already decided that amendment NDP-23 is not in order, and I understand your decision. I was somewhat expecting it, but I would at least have tried to follow it with a recommendation from some witnesses.

Amendment NDP-24 follows up on the previous one. It is intended to ensure the widest possible diversity on the national advisory council on poverty that is proposed in the bill. Our proposal for a subsection 9(3.1) calls for the council to be made up of people from vulnerable groups, people from organizations that fight poverty, and people reflecting the diversity of Canadian society. The goal is for the council to be more diverse. I hope I have the support of members of this committee. It seems like quite a reasonable amendment to me. It is intended simply to ensure diversity on the council.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. McLeod.