Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roch Huppé  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
James Wu  Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the minister, as well as her officials, for making a presentation today. We certainly appreciate the work you do for Canada.

On the topic of morale, as well as the professionalism of the CRA.... Obviously, there are offices both in Kelowna and in my former riding of Okanagan–Coquihalla, in Penticton, and having toured them and met some of the people who are involved, I know they are certainly working very hard.

That being said, I'd like to discuss the CRA a little. Obviously, it's somewhat at arm's length from government, for good reasons. Because of that, there is an opportunity for us to talk about things that have been a reason for concern.

An example is the issue of campgrounds, particularly whether a campground is now no longer eligible for the preferential small business rate. I believe it has to do with the active versus passive nature of their business. Many of these businesses are seasonal. In British Columbia—I'm not sure if you are aware, Minister—real estate prices have increased dramatically over the past 20 years. Tourism is very important to the Okanagan, and many of these smaller campgrounds may decide that, if they cannot run as a small business and access that—instead of being classified as large operations, million-dollar corporations—they may simply sell. This is a concern in my area.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We are here to talk about the supplementary estimates.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

We've always had an opportunity, Mr. Chair, to talk about these things, and these are directly related to operations that we've been talking about today. Both officials have spoken about how they work and are targeting certain businesses with their employees to look after these things. I am speaking directly to this area.

I would like the minister, or her officials, to just explain why there seems to be a difference in this area.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I can talk campgrounds with you. It's an area of activity where everything is calculated on a service basis. The businesses that are entitled to deductions provide water and sewer services, Wi-Fi access, and so on. Measures are really based on the services provided. We assess situations on a case-by-case basis.

It only makes sense that an owner of a wilderness campground in the middle of nowhere who does not offer customers any services can't necessarily take advantage of the same deductions as a campground owner who provides services, engages in business development, and hires staff.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay, so it's not based on the number of employees. It's based on the kinds of services they offer.

I recognize that there are some campgrounds that offer different services. Todd's campground in Peachland has gone from just tents to RVs and other modes.

Could you explain a little more?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I encourage you to check the agency's website because we have received requests about that. We've posted all the information pertaining to campgrounds on the agency's website.

I've also spoken with chambers of commerce about the matter. On the Canada Revenue Agency's website, you can access detailed information about camping-related services.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Okay, but since we do have an opportunity now to have you and your officials, with all due respect, I'd just like to hear a little bit more information. Do any of your officials have anything to add?

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Ted Gallivan

To bring it back to the $440 million, for example, those aren't the taxpayers who would be the focus, so none of the new monies we'd be voting today would be focused there.

In fact, we reorganized our audit function to divide it in two. I have responsibility for the 10% that yields the $8 billion. My colleague has responsibility for small and medium enterprises. In that space she's doing things like the liaison officer initiative, where we took auditors off the audit beat and made them outreach officers who go and talk to people and explain their obligations. II would say what the agency is trying to do in the space that you're describing is understand the taxpayers' needs, look at things from the taxpayers' perspective, see if we can assist in moving them into compliance, and keep the line of communication open with the Department of Finance, where time and evolution kind of makes this explicit wording in the legislation have an impact that wasn't intended.

Back to the $440 million and the crackdown, that's really focused elsewhere. We have no projects in my shop that are in campgrounds.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Do I have any time?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

No, you're out of time.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you to the Minister, and I appreciate both of your—

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Can the minister stay for a question? One member hasn't had the opportunity to ask a question.

Mr. Grewal.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming today. We really appreciate it.

My questions are just from what I see in the constituency. I just want to get your comments and your officials' comments on the use of common sense on settling some of these cases. I have three or four cases in which interest on penalties have added up because of a lack of communication between a constituent and their accountant or a constituent and their lawyer, and there has been interest on penalties that have been added to their accounts.

The constituents are ready, willing, and able to pay the taxes that are owing from previous years, but are looking for interest and penalty relief, and there is a very complicated process for very little sums of money. There's re-emphasis on going after tax evasion on a multi-million-dollar scale, but there are small businesses in the riding, and it took me three weeks to get the assessment from the ministry. They finally said, “This is the process on how to apply for interest and penalty relief, and that process could take up to a year.” It's very tough for small businesses that are employing people, and I really urge you to focus on trying to make that more efficient.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

In terms of the amounts being sought, we really want to focus on improving client services and response times to lessen that feeling of insecurity people have.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Ted Gallivan

Just quickly, there are 400,000 cases a year in terms of taxpayer relief, and it's an important tool. As the minister mentioned, we have to be more timely, and some of the funds here will help to reduce the pressure in that area.

I will also just quickly mention feedback. The appeals branch in the CRA and the audit function are working more closely so that when taxpayers object and complain with reason, that feedback goes back to the audit function, to the auditors who are making those decisions in the first place, to give them a chance to reflect on their behaviour and change moving forward.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Raj Grewal Liberal Brampton East, ON

Thank you very much.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much.

Thank you, gentlemen and Minister.

We did, as you're aware, table a report in the House on tax avoidance, and we look forward with anticipation to your response to that report. We know it will come in 120 days. You have 120 days to respond from the time we tabled it, so we look forward to that.

In any event, thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll turn to the votes on the supplementary estimates. You have the supplementary estimates (B) there before you.

CANADA REVENUE AGENCY Vote 1b—Operating expenditures..........$139,583,733 Vote 5b—Capital expenditures..........$6,477,217

(Votes 1b and 5b agreed to on division)

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Shall I report the supplementary estimates (B), 2016-17, under Canada Revenue Agency to the House?

4:35 p.m.

An hon. member

On division.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think there's probably going to be a motion lifted off the table.

Mr. Duvall, just to be fair, there is one division on Bill C-29 with officials whom we didn't get to. I don't think it'll take that long. It's division 7 of part 4.

Mr. Wu or Mr. Joshua, could you give your presentation?

We'll take questions, and then we'll move to hear motions.

4:35 p.m.

James Wu Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chair, honourable members. It is our pleasure to be here to assist you with division 7 of the budget implementation act, number two.

As announced in budget 2016, the government has conducted a review of legislation that provides authorities for the management of the treasury operations of the government. The objective of this review and the proposed amendments is to ensure that the authorities continue to be sufficient to facilitate sound and efficient management of federal funds and operations of crown corporations.

These, for the most part, amount to technical or housekeeping amendments. They fall into three general categories. The first category is to classify authorities for existing operations that the government is undertaking. A second category is to provide further tools for management of the operations. A third category is related to the crown operations, to make them more efficient, and to provide more flexible tools for certain crowns.

The amendments proposed relate to the Financial Administration Act, the Bank of Canada Act, and the Canada mortgage and housing act. These amendments are covered in clauses 140 to 144 in the bill. Clause 145 is the coming into force provision.

The first amendment is in clause 140. This would establish an explicit authority for the Minister of Finance to lend out excess cash from Receiver General cash balances. These are operations that already occur on a daily basis. The purpose of these operations is to help manage the cost of holding and collecting the cash for expenditures.

The second amendment, also in clause 140, is to establish an explicit authority for the Minister of Finance to enter into certain arrangements, such as hedging against currency risks. From time to time, the government acquires large sums of foreign currencies, and during the period of converting it to Canadian dollars, there's a certain amount of exchange at risk. This amendment is to ensure that the government has more tools for managing against such risks.

The third amendment, which is in clause 141, provides the Minister of Finance with authority to make payments that are consistent with his broader powers under the public debt section of the Financial Administration Act. There are occasions, for instance, when we use fiscal agents in other countries, such as the U.S., to act on behalf of the government in managing the issuances. In the fiscal agent's terms and conditions there is a certain limitation or time frame that obligations in the Canadian debt have to be redeemed. After such time, then there's a potential doubt as to the obligation on behalf of the government to repay that debt. This clause is meant to clarify that the minister would always have the power to pay such debt to ensure that Canada maintains its sound reputation of having good credit and being willing to repay its debts. This is very important in credit markets.

The fourth amendment is in clause 143. This establishes an authority for the Bank of Canada to manage the lending operations from the government to its crown corporations. There's an ongoing lending operation to facilitate the crown's needs. The upfront, front desk operations have been managed by the Department of Finance, since this program started in 2008. Now, over a number of years, the program has been working very well and it's very consistent with the Bank of Canada's fiscal agent's responsibilities for them to actually be running such operations. This amendment would facilitate the transfer of such operations to the Bank of Canada.

Finally, the last amendment relates to clauses 142 and 144. These amendments would propose to allow the Bank of Canada to provide custodial services to the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation already has a custodian, but the intent of these provisions is to allow the Bank of Canada to be able to act as a custodian, which means that CMHC could move a portion of its assets to the Bank of Canada to help manage. This would facilitate and provide more options for CMHC in its financial operations.

A similar provision was provided to the Bank of Canada Act in 2014 to allow similar services to the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, so it's very much the same. We're amending the same provision, but we're just adding CMHC to the end of that provision.

Collectively, these are the amendments that we feel would support the continued sound management of Canada's financial operations. With that, I conclude my remarks, and I'm happy to take any questions you may have.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

The floor is open to questions.

Mr. Albas.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you.

I appreciate the work you do for Canadians. I have a couple of questions. On clause 140, in regard to currency hedging, when someone says “hedging”, other people might hear “arbitrage”. Can you elaborate a bit more about the timing and the kinds of funds that the Minister of Finance would be given authority to by Parliament, please?

4:45 p.m.

Chief, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

James Wu

Most certainly.

The nature of the hedging that we have in mind relates to some examples. One example you may be familiar with is when the government sold its shares in General Motors and acquired approximately $3 billion, Canadian dollar equivalent, of funds. That was a large sum in U.S. dollars that required a certain time frame to transact in the markets without moving market prices. That's one example where we concerted whether we could use derivatives contracts to help manage the exchange rate risk over that period of time when the transaction was occurring, but the view was that the authorities the minister had were not sufficient. This amendment would help address an example like that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

In cases where there are large currency swings—and I'm not going to speculate on the future per se—it is important for Parliament to have an understanding of these kinds of vehicles. You did say “derivatives contracts”. Can you explain some of these tools? Would this be for broader usages? For example, many IMF countries will host currencies into other jurisdictions to, again, manage risk. Would this be used for more than just selling shares as monies come back, or is this part of a broader strategy by the minister?