Finance Committee on April 7th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

We have Dan, and Dan, and Don, and Ron here today.

Go ahead, Mr. Rusnak.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to give a bit of my time to Mr. Tootoo.

First, I'm from an area of the country where we have a lot of isolated communities—northwestern Ontario. We have to fly in food and fuel, and there's diesel generation. I've also had the opportunity to sit on the natural resources committee, and some of the innovative solutions to power and growing your own food in those isolated locations were brought forward. Has the territory been looking at some of that for your communities? Is there government support for innovation in terms of alternative power options and alternative food options, so you don't have to fly in food and fuel?

[Peter Taptuna]

Of course we've looked at these options and opportunities. We pay attention to that, but you still have to remember we're in the Arctic, and for the most part we have -40° temperatures in the wintertime. In the high Arctic, you don't have any sunlight for months on end, for six months out of the year. Again, when we talk about the Arctic and Nunavut, it's not like northern Ontario; it's quite different.

There are options. We pay particular attention to that. The high cost of doing anything up there takes away the benefit. Of course, we'll take a closer look at these options, especially alternative energy. At this point we haven't found anything that could actually work up there.

In some communities we have solar power. In my little community of Kugluktuk, we have our arena that's powered by solar. For the most part it works okay, but again, that's a whole different region of Nunavut. We're just 40 minutes north of Yellowknife. We get a lot of sunshine there, so it works for us in our small community, but it won't work for, let's say, 20 other communities.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'll hand my time over too.

Thank you, Mr. Premier.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Hunter.

[Hunter Tootoo, Independent, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Don.

In your comments you mentioned the territorial health funding. I've raised questions in the House before. Actually, if you look at the percentage of the Government of Nunavut's budget that goes towards health care compared with what it receives from Canada it is about 11%. For the rest of the country, the average is around 20% or 21%.

If you look at the social housing agreements and the infrastructure funding in the past, as you mentioned, on a per capita basis, those don't work. I think that's the problem with these national formulas, they don't take into account the unique circumstances that we have in Nunavut.

Do you think there needs to be a different way, a different mechanism, or a way to think outside the box of these national formulas for funding the territories so that the level of services they provide to their residents can be comparable to that in the rest of Canada?

[Peter Taptuna]

Absolutely. We've been speaking about “base-plus” when it comes to program funding and other funding opportunities that the federal government has for its programs. Having a small population, especially when it comes to health, is a real problem for us. Even though there are billions of dollars set aside for mental health, we would be accessing just a small amount of that for our territory because that's based on population. Again, over an 11- or 10-year period, I believe it's an insignificant amount, even though every little bit helps. That type of funding mechanism just doesn't work for Nunavut.

[Hunter Tootoo, Independent, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Premier.

You touched on the mental health funding. You actually declared suicide a crisis in Nunavut. Our numbers are staggering. You talked about the announcement in the federal budget on mental health funding, and my understanding is that this year Nunavut is going to get maybe $300,000 for that. Going forward, for years after, it's $500,000 a year. Given the lack of services available across the territory, there needs to be much more significant investment in addressing mental health challenges to help curb the suicide rate in the territory.

How would you see the way forward to address those sad statistics that we face in the territory?

[Peter Taptuna]

You're absolutely right. During the last fiscal year, we had budgeted over $6 million specifically for mental health. We overspent our budget by over $8 million, and that's just scratching the surface.

As you know, I declared suicide a crisis a few years ago. We set up a secretariat to deal specifically with mental health. Again, that just scratches the surface, and we do need extra help to deal with that terrible situation we face. We have small communities that are extremely expensive to get to. It's very difficult for us to bring in professional people to help us out, psychologists and other health care professionals, when it to comes to that.

It does put a lot of pressure on our budget. At this point, we're just barely scratching the surface, and we need a lot of help from our federal partners to alleviate that, which in a sense would benefit other jurisdictions. We have to send our patients to other jurisdictions—Ontario, Alberta, and Manitoba—for help, which we appreciate, but we need some extra help when it comes to federal funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

Just to come back to this, I'm of the understanding—and I think everyone has signed on but Manitoba—that the health accord going forward for the next 10 years is base-plus. I come from P.E.I. and we have the same situation with per capita, where we were just falling further and further behind. But in the negotiation for the smaller territories and one small province, there is a set amount and then it's per capita. Am I wrong on that?

[Peter Taptuna]

Mr. Chairman, may I have my deputy minister respond to that question in detail?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes.

[Chris D'Arcy, Deputy Minister, Executive and Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Nunavut]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Since 2007, Canada health transfer has been working towards a straight per capita model. Nunavut was exempt from that prior to 2007, and then we were grandfathered until last year or so, until it came to straight per capita. To the best of my knowledge, all provinces and territories received a Canada health transfer with respect to what their populations are. However, that said, there have been other arrangements, such as the territorial health investment fund that has now been extended for four years for us at $13.5 million a year. The other two territories also have an amount. It's not exactly the same as that. If you want to think about that as a base-plus to the CHT, a person may, but the actual formula is straight per capita.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I know we were critical of the per capita, and as I understand it, in the health arrangement there is a set amount for the territories and P.E.I. In any event, we'll check it out a little further, because you're absolutely right that on a straight per capita basis the smaller populated areas fall further and further behind those areas that have a bigger tax base.

Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair. I'm informing the committee that I will share my time with colleague Tootoo.

Premier, gentlemen, welcome to your House of Commons.

Premier, I think my colleagues, especially the one from Alberta, were crystal clear. We strongly agree with your position on a moratorium, and also on a carbon tax. We consider that it will kill many industries in this country. Especially for you, this is not a challenge; this is a tragedy. That is why we strongly support your position on that, and we strongly support that applying from coast to coast to coast.

Because I want to leave more time for my colleague Mr. Tootoo, my question will be about the Internet. We all recognize that the Internet and broadband is a tool for the 21st century for business challenges, and especially for development, and certainly also for communication, but it's very costly. What is your proposition in regard to that? How can we finance that kind of challenge?

[Peter Taptuna]

Thank you. I'll have my Minister of Community and Government Services respond to that.

[Joe Savikataaq]

Thank you.

We're currently negotiating with ISED to get the broadband funding that the federal government has made available. We're looking at all options right now, a fibre optic link, and low earth orbit satellites, which are being tested right now. We still need the federal government's help. We can't do it on our own. Our territory is too vast.

Currently, we're all on satellite Internet. There is only one provider and we pay what the provider charges, so it's a challenge.

It's a bit more than a challenge even. Because the Internet is so slow, we have a hard time using it for telehealth. When you have the connectivity that is available down here, down south, it's almost the same as talking here right now. When you're doing it up north, you get gaps where the image freezes while the person is still talking. We have challenges.

We are doing a joint feasibility study with northern Quebec, the Nunavik region, in terms of a fibre optic link through the ocean. We're looking at all options, because we know we are falling further and further behind. We need to catch up with the rest of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Hunter, you're really getting a whack of rounds today.

[Hunter Tootoo, Independent, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. To your suggestion about per capita funding, I think everyone but you would agree that maybe we should move to a land-mass-based formula for funding.

[An hon. member]

That wouldn't work so well for P.E.I.

[Hunter Tootoo, Independent, Nunavut, NU]

You talked about connectivity, education, and health care. I think you get better service on your cellphone down here than you get in most communities in Nunavut, and again the cost of any project in the north is high. I know one proposal was looking at bringing in fibre optics underwater from Greenland over to Iqaluit, which uses probably between 60% and 70% of the bandwidth of the territory.

How do you see something like that would help not only increase Internet services and connectivity to the rest of the territory, but also bring down the cost of health care and improve educational opportunities for Nunavummiut?

[Joe Savikataaq]

If a fibre optic link was brought into Iqaluit, and as you said, it's the biggest user. It would free up the satellite broadband for all the other smaller communities, so it would benefit all of Nunavut. We are looking at that option too. We talked to the smaller communities to let them know that even if only Iqaluit is linked, it will benefit all the territories because it will free up that bandwidth. We're looking at options from Greenland. We're looking at options to partner with northern Quebec. We're looking at land options. We're looking at all options right now, but as a territory we cannot fund this. We absolutely need the federal government to fund it, either totally or partially. We can't do it on our own. We just don't have that funding capacity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

Mr. Ruimy.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much for being here today.

I'm new to this committee. I'm subbing for the day. In the other two committees I sit on, we're speaking to some of the things you folks are facing. I'm chair of the science committee, and we'll be studying the Internet broadband issue. We've had lots of conversations about how and where and why we can address rural areas such as yours. In my other committee, we're doing a poverty reduction study and we've been to some of the rural areas, so I fully appreciate the circumstances that you face where you are.

I have a couple of questions, again understanding the necessity of the Internet. Coming from Vancouver I visited a pilot project in Vancouver a few times to see how they're doing with telehealth. It's quite amazing to see, but I'm assuming that with a satellite you're not able to access any of that up there. Is that correct?

[Joe Savikataaq]

There is access to it, but it's very limited. For example, in Iqaluit they have MRI and they can use it, but the results are sent down south to be analyzed. They can only upload that to send it off to the south at night when no one is using the Internet because there are so many users during the day that they cannot do it. We're working with the system we have, but it is definitely inadequate for telehealth.

If we had more bandwidth and faster speed, it would cut down the cost. Instead of sending a patient down to southern facilities to get analyzed, they could use telehealth to cut down the travel costs, so there are cost savings in it.