Finance Committee on May 1st, 2017

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Mr. Chair, can I just seek some clarification here? If there were a substantive motion before us, everyone in this room would expect you to be able to arbitrate the business of the committee. But this is the one chance when a member of Parliament actually has five minutes to be able to represent their views and questions directly to people who are in the know. That is very important. For you to be dismissing a certain line of questioning when the member is one who arbitrates that is contrary to our representative process.

Mr. Chair, if it were in regard to a standard motion, I would understand and respect your ruling. This is not conducive to proper procedure when we're studying or discussing the parliamentary budget office.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

In fairness to the witnesses, they were invited here on the economic and fiscal update. As I said in the beginning, there will be other opportunities. We have the budget implementation act. This issue was debated somewhat in the House. It may eventually get to this committee for further discussion. I don't know, given what's happening in the House...or if we want to do a prestudy.

In any event, the issue for today's agenda is the economic and fiscal outlook, and that's what I'm sticking to. If you want to challenge the chair then you can do that.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

This is censorship, Mr. Chair.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, I totally disagree with your decision, but you're the chair, so I have the obligation to follow your ruling and I will. I totally disagree and am very upset at what I'm looking at now. As a parliamentarian for nearly 10 years, this is the first time that a chair has asked me not to ask that kind of question, but I will follow your rulings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Thank you.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Fréchette, you have presented your April 2017 economic and fiscal outlook. If Bill C-44 unfortunately passes, would it be possible for you to present a similar outlook in a future Parliament?

Specifically, section 79.14(1) of the bill provides that:

Before each fiscal year, the Parliamentary Budget Officer shall prepare an annual work plan [...]

Further on, section 79.14(2) of the bill stipulates that:

The annual work plan is subject to the approval of the Speaker of Senate and the Speaker of the House of Commons [...]

Moreover, you have stated, loosely translated, that:

I am more apprehensive about the Speaker of the Senate than the Speaker of the House of Commons [...]. The Speaker of the Senate is appointed by the Prime Minister's Office, while the Speaker of the House of Commons is elected by his peers.

So could a document such as the one we are examining today still be prepared, despite the affront contained in Bill C-44?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to raise a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Greg.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You just indicated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry. I was in a separate conversation, but I am ruling that question out of order.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I think it is an indirect question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

If you want to come back, we'll not take the time away from you, Mr. Deltell, but I'm asking committee members to stick to the economic and fiscal outlook, and I just would point out—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, if you didn't have the chance to listen to my question, you missed something good, because I was asking questions based on that, and on some other issues.

May I ask Monsieur Fréchette to answer my question, because I think—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

—he paid attention to what I asked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Rephrase your question if you could, please, Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Okay.

What are your thoughts on my question, Mr. Fréchette?

[Jean-Denis Fréchette]

Thank you for the question.

We produce this report twice a year for this committee, pursuant to one of the motions it adopted. Our role is of course to serve committees and parliamentarians. If the motion is still in effect in the next session of Parliament, we will certainly respond to this kind of request from the committee.

To answer your question, I would say that this kind of study could be conducted at the request of committees in the coming months, even in view of a potential reform.

That said, I will pick up on something you said. The public service does indeed keep a closer eye on this kind of report. The previous question from the government MP was a good one and I answered it by saying that it is very important to a committee such as this one that the PBO and his team are still able to prepare economic outlooks.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, I should mention that Mr. Fréchette's statement, which I read rather quickly, is from an interview he gave the daily, Le Devoir.

It is nonetheless very worrisome, Mr. Chair. The independence of the PBO will indeed be undermined if Bill C-44 is passed.

What other concern do you have about this kind of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We're not going to Bill C-44.

Mr. Albas questioned whether or not this was based on a motion. I'm going to read a motion that was passed at this committee. It was a motion by Ms. O'Connell on February 4, 2016. The following was agreed:

That, consistent with the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) mandate to provide independent analysis about the state of Canada’s finances and trends in the national economy (as outlined in section 79.2 of the Parliament of Canada Act), the PBO provide an economic and fiscal outlook to the Committee the fourth week of October and April of every calendar year, and be available to appear before the Committee to discuss its findings shortly thereafter.

We're holding this committee meeting today pursuant to that motion. As I said earlier, Bill C-44 will come up at a proper time when you'll have all the opportunity in the world to raise your questions related to Bill C-44. We're not here for that purpose today. So let's get back to the economic and fiscal outlook.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That is precisely what we are concerned about, Mr. Chair. The document we are studying today is based on the motion we had introduced, the purpose of which is to analyze the Government of Canada's economic and financial outlook. That is part of the PBO's mandate.

If, unfortunately, we have to provide our questions in advance or, worse still, we are told we cannot ask questions on certain topics, this would undermine parliamentarians' freedom of expression, Mr. Chair. As a member of Parliament, I cannot accept that.

It will ultimately be for the public to judge whether we have done a good job. It is not up to some speaker to judge. Unfortunately, that is what Bill C-44 is designed to do by giving the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Speaker of the Senate the power to approve or reject the PBO's work plan. Yet this is the very essence of our role as parliamentarians, and of the PBO's role. The position of PBO was created to be protected from any kind of political pressure.

I very proudly recall that it was our political party that created this position. I am also very proud to recall that, as a member of a provincial legislative assembly, the National Assembly, I suggested that it establish this kind of position. I am especially proud to see that our parliamentary committee has the privilege of welcoming the PBO, and I will certainly not stop myself from asking questions when the PBO is before us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I said I'd give you a little more time because I took part of your time. Do you have any questions on the economic and fiscal update that the parliamentary office has compiled and on the remarks the PBO made in his opening statement? Are there any questions—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My main question—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Is it related to the issues that are before this committee today?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My main question will be, can the PBO assure us that he will always be independent and free to write, speak, explain, and address issues while you will have the control of the Speaker of the House and the Speaker of the Senate?