Finance Committee on May 29th, 2017

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

All those in favour of PV-10?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

On LIB-6, Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, this amendment is quite similar to the amendment we just heard. However, the difference is really in terms of matters that Parliament has jurisdiction over. I think that distinction is important in ensuring that we stick to the parameters of the House and relevant information. This also allows the broadening of the scope of what individual parliamentarians may ask the PBO to cost.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Yes, I'd like to move a subamendment. It would read: “cial, economic, and distributional impact of any proposal that relates to a matter over which Parliament has jurisdiction.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Where are you putting it in? The legislative clerk will bring it up.

Okay, LIB-6 is on page 30 of the amendments. After “cial” the subamendment inserts “economic and distributional impact” and “cost” is removed. The way it would read, if you're looking at LIB-6, is, “cial, economic, and distributional impact of”.

Are we clear on that? Okay.

The subamendment is up for discussion.

Go ahead, Mr. Dusseault.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

I want to explain my subamendment.

It is based on the draft bill of the parliamentary budget officer, who obviously spoke at length about that issue and the reform of his position. Instead of using the word “cost”, whose meaning is broad, the amendment requires us to specify that it is about the financial and economic impacts of any proposed measures that relate to a matter over which Parliament has jurisdiction.

So we want to replace the word “cost” with a more specific expression that reflects what the parliamentary budget officer was saying in his draft bill concerning the need to specify what kind of analyses he can carry out. Those analyses would pertain to the financial, economic and distributional impacts.

I hope that my colleagues will support my amendment to clarify the notion of cost, as suggested by the parliamentary budget officer. The amendment gets right to the point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I have Ms. O'Connell, Mr. Fergus, and the witnesses might have something to add as well.

Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, my question is for the witnesses.

What are the impacts of this subamendment in regard to the function of the PBO?

[Allen Sutherland]

The subamendment would broaden the role of the PBO in this particular instance from a strict costing mandate to economic and distributional impacts, so you're broadening the role of the PBO.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I would assume that would also entail potentially longer time frames for this work and would limit the ability of work plan items, if they're now looking at a much larger mandate.

[Allen Sutherland]

That's speculation, but given a fixed budget, yes, you're correct.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'm trying to get my head around this, and because I'm not an economist, I hope somebody can help me, either Monsieur Dusseault or certainly the witnesses.

I'm trying to figure out in what ways you are expanding the definition by suggesting the addition in the subamendment of “economic and distributional impact”. Is that just cost over a long period of time, or is it going beyond, to the multiplier effect of whatever initiative is taken as opposed to what the actual initiative will cost?

[Allen Sutherland]

Just taking the words that were provided, rather than the strict cost of a proposal, you would also consider the distributional impact, perhaps some beneficiaries, if it's a tax measure, distributional impact on people paying the tax. You're basically looking at it from different economic perspectives.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

With regard to distributional impact, would a gender-based analysis be considered a distributional impact?

[Allen Sutherland]

Yes, it possibly could be. The economic distributional impact by gender would be conceivable, at least as I interpret the subamendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Would this bring in a judgment factor rather than just the numbers?

[Allen Sutherland]

I don't think it would be far beyond what the PBO does on some of his broader economic analyses, but the further you go from a pure costing mandate, the more likely you are to bring in judgment factors.

You can also do a neutral declaration of the distributional impacts of a particular proposal. It need not be biased.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Was that the end of your questions, Mr. Fergus?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'm at a situation where I'd like a couple of seconds to think about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we'll go to Mr. Albas and then come back to you.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Wouldn't it make for a little more clarification, rather than just leaning on distributive, to actually say, “including demographics, such as age, gender, etc.”?

Some economic models will take this into account, and some will not. There should be some flexibility. There's a very good point in allowing for that distributive mechanism, but it doesn't always apply to every model in the same way. Without some specificity and some flexibility on the PBO.... I would trust that if the PBO and staff were to say that a certain program initiative would have distributive effects, they would explain exactly which ones those were.

Do we need to have that in law to be able to have those things reported on by the PBO?

[Allen Sutherland]

The current language is “cost”, which is pretty narrow. I think what you're proposing is a broader range of economic factors. It could be regional, demographic, and distributional.