Finance Committee on April 2nd, 2020

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We hear you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Good afternoon, Minister Morneau.

First, I'm glad to hear that your family is doing well. I also want to thank you and your team for the measures put in place.

On the ground, we're hearing about the importance of putting measures in place and making the details available as quickly as possible. The goal is ensure that the people who should benefit from the measures don't fall through the cracks in the system. If necessary, the rules must be changed so that people can benefit from the measures in a fair manner.

My first two questions concern the emergency benefit. Minister Morneau, when I asked you questions in the House, you said that small businesses, individual firms and small companies could access the benefit. However, according to the details released so far, people who pay themselves dividends as opposed to wages wouldn't be able to access the benefit. Is that correct?

With respect to the $5,000 in income criterion, would it be possible to accept income paid out as dividends?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Minister, go ahead.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you for your comments.

I completely agree. We consider it crucial to implement measures as quickly as possible so that people can access the funding. I also agree that the details must be released as soon as possible.

We're considering every detail. This is necessary for the administration of the assistance. We'll have more details in the coming days. At the same time, we're making sure that our approach and our system work. This is being done at the same time. We're not looking at the details and then turning our attention to the administration of the assistance. We're doing both at the same time.

With respect to the emergency benefit, I know that the issue of dividends is important for SMEs. We'll try to take this issue into consideration over the coming days. We want to reassure SMEs that they can access the emergency benefit if they've earned $5,000. That's the goal of this measure.

Of course, we must look at some significant details, and we're in the process of doing so.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay.

Some workers also fall through the cracks in the system because of the rule stipulating 14 days with no income. They want to access the emergency benefit, but that rule is an issue.

For example, volunteer firefighters often take another job to earn a living. Sometimes, the businesses where they work close down or stop employing them temporarily. They then try to access the emergency benefit. However, since they're paid when they're called to respond to a fire, they aren't eligible for the benefit. Countless municipalities are telling us that this situation is very dangerous, because the municipalities will no longer have volunteer firefighters.

Will there be any exceptions to the rule stipulating 14 days with no income?

I gave the example of volunteer firefighters, but we can also consider elected municipal officials who receive symbolic compensation for their duties. Will they need to resign from their positions to access the emergency benefit?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I know some examples of difficult cases that we must consider. Our approach is to find a simple and effective solution that can be implemented as soon as possible. That's why we've decided to establish only two criteria. In our view, this leads to greater effectiveness.

That said, we're considering significant issues, such as the example that you provided. I don't have an answer right now, but we'll have more details soon.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I have time to ask another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You have just 20 seconds.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Okay.

It seems that bars won't have access to the interest-free loan program. However, Quebec ordered bars to close two and a half weeks ago.

Will there be anything for them? Can the government include them in the loan program?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Your question is about bars, right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Minister, the question was this. Bars have been closed now for two weeks. Is there anything there to cover them and their employees?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Our approach is to ensure that the wage subsidy and emergency benefit are retroactive to March 15, which is about two weeks ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

We turn to you now, Mr. Julian.

I would remind members, if they ask a supplementary question in the middle, especially if it's in a different language, to state their name so the interpreters know who is raising the point.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Morneau, for being with us today. We are all happy your family is well.

We know you're working hard, and I think all of us as parliamentarians, who are all putting in long hours around this, want to make sure things work for Canadians through this crisis and that we get through the crisis with no one left behind.

We will be having similar meetings in the coming weeks. I particularly invite you, Mr. Minister, to come to the session we will have around indigenous communities and the supports offered to them.

We want everything to work. That's why we've been urging you to be as wide as possible in the regulations around the Canada emergency response benefit. However, the reality is that this benefit misses so many Canadians who are struggling to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table. I myself have had hundreds of constituents approach me about these issues and about getting through the next month or two.

There is a way of putting resources immediately in the hands of every Canadian who needs them, and that's by providing a universal benefit. Jagmeet Singh has spoken to this, as have many others. Why not provide a universal benefit to everyone to help us to get through this crisis, and then tax it back from those who don't need it?

My second question is this. Given the shortage of time, as you're also aware, Mr. Minister, Canadians are going into deeper debt in order to keep their families going. We've heard stories of line-ups outside Canadian lenders being longer than grocery store line-ups in some neighbourhoods. Banks and credit card companies have not lowered interest rates, and mortgage deferrals are few and far between and often come with exorbitant penalties. What are you doing in this area to lower those interest rates and to get the mortgage deferrals, which of course also have an impact on the ability of landlords to give renters much more flexibility around paying rent?

Could you please answer those two questions, on the universal benefit and on the interest rate?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for those questions. I'm happy to answer them.

First of all, on the universal benefit, I think many people will have seen that the United States, for example, is talking about sending a cheque for $1,200 to every American. We came to the conclusion quite rapidly that sending a modest amount like that to every Canadian is not nearly as advantageous as sending more to those who are actually impacted by COVID-19.

In the case of the $500 per week for 16 weeks, people will be able to get $8,000. That, in our estimation, is the right way to deal with this challenge—to address the people who are actually finding themselves in a significantly challenged position as a result of this crisis, and then, on top of that, to make sure that the firms that can continue to have a relationship with their employees can have an ability, through the wage subsidy, to pay them [Technical difficulty—Editor]. We think that's just the right way to do this.

We might also add that administration is critically important in this regard, and the timing to get out the cheques we're talking about is coming very soon. That is how we plan on dealing with this challenge.

With respect to working with the banks, we've been working every single day with the banks to make sure they have the ability to provide credit to businesses through this time. That has been an intense series of discussions, but it's gone well. We now have the banks getting close to being up and running to provide small businesses with that $40,000 interest-free loan. We're hopeful that this can start as early as next week.

We know that mortgage deferrals are something we've provided capacity for the banks to do, and I understand that this is getting going as well, with tens of thousands, in fact hundreds of thousands, of those applications going on.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you—

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We're going to keep working with banks to make sure that we deal with these issues, and we're going to keep working on measures that will support Canadians.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I would disagree. I think there are powers you have under the Bank Act to push much further.

Also, given the examples that many people are citing of other countries making a universal benefit payment, there was no doubt that it would go directly into the hands of people who need it. Ms. Dzerowicz mentioned the problems even in her area of downtown Toronto. All MPs are experiencing this.

I have two further questions, first on the wage subsidy. The six-week delay is simply too long. You have said that your objective is three weeks. My question is, why can't you get it out more quickly? Also, what steps are you taking to make sure that the money gets to workers and isn't used for other purposes?

And then in terms of sector-specific supports, what sectors are you looking to support, and are you making any financial support conditional on protections of jobs and wages, and prohibiting stock buybacks, dividends—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Peter, give the minister time to answer.

Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First of all, with respect to getting money into the hands of people, we are going as fast as humanly possible with the systems that already exist. We are not creating new systems to do that.

What we're going to require firms to do is show us that they've actually paid the money out to employees. That way we know that it's going directly to employees. That's critically important.

We are working hard to get it out as rapidly as possible. It's not as easy as just pressing a button. We need to actually make sure that we can get the money to the right organizations, supporting the right people. We are doing it fast and we are making sure that we get it done. I can assure you that if we can do it faster, we will in fact get there.

On an ongoing basis, we appreciate all these questions.

And Peter, if there is anything you want to get to me directly, I am happy to respond directly and continue to work together to make sure that we can support Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. That ends the first round.

I don't know your schedule, Minister. I think you have to go shortly.

We'll go to five-minute rounds and start with Mr. Poilievre.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead.