Finance Committee on May 7th, 2020

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to be here today.

I'll start with Ms. Burridge. I'm a critic on the small business and export promotion portfolio. I did hear you loud and clear that the CEBA program lacks flexibility. I'm very interested in how it has impacted the fisheries. We're hearing that from a lot of small businesses, especially a lot of small businesses that have contractors or who may be paid through contract workers or through dividends.

Your suggestion to just consider their income to be box 14 employment income seems to me like a pretty simple method to allow these people access to CEBA and the same thing goes with the dividend: submit your T5.

Can you elaborate a little more on that?

[Christina Burridge]

Yes, that's exactly why we suggested it, because it's the one thing that I think could be done really very quickly to allow box 14 to count.

Getting access to the CEBA, as far as my members are concerned, would be the most helpful thing we could do. With fisheries just beginning to gear up, fishermen have to go out and buy a licence. When I look at the salmon seine fleet last year, let's say for a chum salmon, which was probably worth about $9 a fish, the licence fee took up $7 of that. This is a very significant cost. There's all the cost of paying the crew to get the boat ready, doing the maintenance, all of that. Normally a fisherman would go and borrow that money, possibly from the bank, more likely from a processor, and processors don't have any money this year either. Banks certainly don't want to lend to fishermen, so if we could just fix that, it would be one thing that could be done immediately that would work for just about every small business vessel owner on the B.C. coast.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Great. Thank you, Ms. Burridge

Mr. LeBlanc, you mentioned something in your presentation about members who have had to take money out of their RRSP. They need the money—you have to have the cash to be able to operate—so they removed their RRSP and paid tax on the money coming out of their RRSP.

Would you be amenable to the idea that you could withdraw from your RRSP tax-free as a loan and then at some future date, maybe down the road two or three years, you could inject it back into your RRSP?

[Leonard LeBlanc]

I mentioned in my presentation that our members should be able to withdraw from their RRSPs tax-free for this year, due to the crisis, but I think we're open to flexibility as to how it would work if that's not palatable for the Department of Finance. I think there's capital there that could be withdrawn to help harvesters in this crisis.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I want to shift to you, Mr. Jollimore. You've completely impressed me. You're a small business guy. You're out there fishing. I had a client who now is in the business of selling versus harvesting. It's called Effing Seafoods. I admire him so much because he's such an entrepreneur. He came from being a fisherman off the coast of Vancouver.

It has to be frustrating for you that every program we've talked about today has virtually ignored the position you're in. Can you give me some feedback from you and your peers on how it feels when most of these programs have exempted you?

[Mitchell Jollimore]

First of all, thanks for the kind words.

I know who you mean. I know Rob Tryon. He's got Effing Seafoods.

Our family has two retail outlets and a lobster pound too. We buy as well, so the hustle's there.

Right now, the sense among the fishermen is that the programs are there, and in the way that was worded, they don't want to create new funds for us. We're not asking for new funds. We're just asking for modifications to what is already out there. It is frustrating that it has already come to this point on the calendar.

We were supposed to already be in the water at this point. We have missed a very important part of our season pre-Mother's Day on the Atlantic coast. In P.E.I. last year, we landed 39.9 million pounds. Around seven million of that was sold before Mother's Day. A big part of our lobster is caught and sold before now.

By missing out on that and not having access to capital, hired men are missing out on weeks of employment right now. Our boats are in the water. Our gear is on the wharf. Everything has been prepared and is ready to go. It is frustrating that it is getting to this point.

We'd like to have something announced so that everybody can make plans accordingly. At this point, when everybody is going to be set for the 15th, people are ordering bait tomorrow. It's that kind of thing. This is something that needs to happen quickly now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll have to end it there. Sorry, James.

I'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to say a huge thanks to all the amazing presenters. My riding is in downtown Toronto. I grew up in downtown Toronto, but believe it or not, my mother's first job when she immigrated to Canada from Mexico was actually in processing salmon. That went on until the late seventies. I remember always having a houseful of salmon and always loving it.

Thank you for your presentations today. You all have been very clear about what the needs are right now and what some of the weaknesses are in our current support programs. You've come up with some excellent ideas about some of the adjustments and programs you might be looking for. I want to say that it has come across loud and clear. It has been an excellent dialogue and discussion.

I want to focus my question on one of the things the Prime Minister said this morning in response to questions from the media after his daily update. He said that one of the things the federal government is doing is looking at how we “build back better”. A lot of our discussions focus very much on this year. How are we going to get through this year? How are we going to pivot into 2021? I think the reality is that the world is going to look a bit different when this pandemic is over and as we get through this pandemic. I'll also say that sometimes crises like these actually allow us to see weaknesses in our current business models.

My question is open to anyone who would like to respond. I'd like to hear from the different coasts and the different parts of the fishing sector. How can the federal government start investing in the fishing sector in a way that's going to help the sector build back better?

I think Ms. Burridge mentioned that there are some things we could be doing, but they would require a huge investment in a particular type of technology. I would love to hear a little bit of that, because not only do I think that we need to invest right now to help you survive, I also think that we need to be investing to help you actually thrive moving forward.

Who would like to start to respond to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Ms. Burridge, do you want to start?

[Christina Burridge]

Yes, I'd be glad to start with that.

We talked a bit about how we think the world is going to look different. We have to figure out how to get our export markets back. We have to look at the domestic market. I think one of the challenges is going to be that it's not just us who will have to do things differently, it is government departments as well.

I very much want to encourage dialogue with DFO on collaborative ways in which we can make things better, in which we can manage fisheries in a world, as someone put it, where their might not be so many humans on the water [Inaudible--Editor] government people, really, rather than our own harvests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. MacPherson.

[Ian MacPherson]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but I think we're in a classic situation where more doesn't always necessarily mean better. We've become so export-focused on our seafood that I think we need to walk it back and make sure that the return to the harvesters, which is the start of the whole supply chain, is adequate.

I think we have an opportunity to reset that, as Captain Jollimore has pointed out. We have some challenges for this year, but It doesn't need to be the template of millions of pounds going and there not being a sufficient return to the harvesters.

We want people in the middle to make money too.

I think it's a good chance to reset that, be it a marketing program, selling more in Canada—closer markets—whatever. I think there's some room there, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Jim.

[Jim McIsaac]

Definitely for the last 30 years in the west coast—this is happening somewhat in the east coast as well—we've let our fishery be owned and controlled offshore to a greater extent. Pivoting back to the Canadian focus, the standing committee on fisheries last year put a set of recommendations forward to try to address these issues.

Those kinds of things need to happen so that we have ownership of access in Canadian hands and we have a program to focus on domestic markets going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I'm sorry, Julie. We've run out of time.

We will go to one question each from the following: Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, Mr. Johns, Mr. Arnold and Ms. Koutrakis.

Go ahead, Alexis.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It will be Mr. Ste-Marie's turn, Mr. Chair. I will wait for the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Gabriel.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will ask the question and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe will have his turn in the next round.

My question is for the Fédération des pêcheurs indépendants.

If not all seafood products are sold this year, we could end up with a significant increase in frozen stocks. Are you concerned that this will affect prices for fishers next year?

What should the government do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to take that on?

Ms. Sonnenburg.

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I'll start it.

This is a concern. We've heard Mr. Irvine from the Lobster Council talk about it. It's to have that kind of reserve.... To have stranded lobster, for example, with no place to go will be very difficult for the industry.

That's why some of the suggestions we've made in our presentation today are not just for the one year. In 365 days, we're going to have to look at this for the long haul, to see what kind of things can be done as we go forward.

It's concerning, for sure. I think harvesters, buyers and processors are trying to work through how to control the demand right now and work through the challenges we have. However, certainly it would be a very difficult situation if we have too much product.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Jim, did you want to add something else?

[Jim McIsaac]

One of the things that harvesters have been doing is trying to change the fisheries management plans, the operational plans, to slow down the harvest so that it can be absorbed into the domestic market.

Those kinds of things going forward can help on this. Instead of having a large harvest at one time being stuck into cold storage, to distribute it out slowly so it's going out to fresh markets domestically.... That's happening here on the Pacific.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm hearing from many of you about lack of access to capital and, of course, the Canada emergency bank account. This is something that we're hearing from many small business people, whether it be people who own a yoga studio who are contracting people out, or builders. Of course, fishers, we're hearing from you that you can't access the Canada emergency wage subsidy.

We hear from small business people that they can't access the Canada emergency commercial rent program. We're hearing from people who can't access the CEBA. In fact, in B.C., 49% of businesses can't access any of the government programs. The small business people feel that the system is rigged against them.

My question is for you, Mr. LeBlanc. Can you talk about how important this financing is for independent fishers and for small business people, and how important it is to the supply chain if independent fishers don't get financing?

[Leonard LeBlanc]

I think what we've proposed in our $120,000 interest-free loan would go a long way, not only in giving some needed financing to individual harvesters, but also, it would be good for communities and the contributing business that harvesters deal with. This would be an availability of funding that they could use to buy a motor or to buy something else to make their enterprises more efficient. It is also critical that we have this to support our local communities.