Finance Committee on May 14th, 2020

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First of all my message would be to landlords. I think this is a really important program that will be supportive of landlords, and I think they should take advantage of this.

What we have seen, for landlords, is that many tenants cannot pay their rent. If they have a commercial tenant who can't pay rent, then they are much better off to get 75% of that rent—so 25% from the tenant and 50% guaranteed by the government—than to get potentially zero. That is a huge advantage for landlords. For tenants, obviously it's a huge advantage, because they can decrease their rent payment because of the support from government. That is my message.

This is a program that is just being rolled out. Of course, there are always concerns. It won't work for every single situation. The landlord-commercial tenant relationship is a provincial jurisdiction. We are trying to help to make this work by stepping in through the mortgage system. We think this can have a really big and important impact on small business in our country, and I would encourage landlords to be a part of it. I would encourage commercial tenants and landlords to work together to get through this.

Obviously, it will be helpful for all of us if those stores, which are making our lives so vibrant, remain along our streets when we get through this COVID-19 situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Be very quick, Julie.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I have one quick question, Minister. We're learning a lot through this pandemic. You mentioned that 7.5 million Canadians have applied for CERB. We also know that many people have lost their jobs. We've also learned, through these committee meetings, that there are actually a lot of jobs available, whether they're in agriculture or health care or even in construction. How might this information, the fact that there are actually jobs available and we know a lot of people are out of jobs, impact our thinking and our approach to supports moving forward?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I think, Julie, you're pointing out an important question that we need to answer, which is how do we move into the next phase? The Prime Minister has talked about extending the wage subsidy. We think that is a step, but we're going to need to think about how that system, our emergency response benefit and our employment insurance system work together, creating the right incentives for people to get back to work, creating the right support so that businesses will bring people back on. We're working through that now.

I think we all know what the goal is. The goal is to get people back to work, to get people into those jobs that are available and to create new jobs as we move forward. That's what we're working towards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay. Thank you both.

Minister, we will let you go.

I just want to make one point. It relates to the question on fraud. I think you gave a fairly clear answer. The answer, to be honest, hasn't been clear from the minister or the Prime Minister on that issue. I think it needs to be stated clearly that the government is not going to accept what is clearly fraud, but there are going to be a lot of errors out there.

I have constituents who were on EI, went back to work, but because they automatically got enrolled in CERB, had no way of saying they were going back to work. They ended up, when they came home, having a $2,000 cheque to deposit. They called, worried about what would happen. I actually had to write a letter to them, saying that, “Look, this was an error on the government's part. Continue to work. Don't spend the $2,000. Set it aside, and when things settle out here that money can be paid back.” Those kinds of errors are going to happen in a fast-moving system like this, but the government has to make it clear that we are not going to accept what is outright fraud. That money will be hauled back in. I think somebody needs to be clear.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Let me just be clear on behalf of the government. We designed these programs with an attestation that allows people to get into the program based on some pretty clear facts. That was in order to facilitate getting money out to a very large number of Canadians in a rapid way. The fact that there are some people who are committing fraud or that there are accidents is a problem. We're going to have to come back to those problems.

For those people who are committing fraud, that's not acceptable. We are going to come back. We are going to have to deal with that, and that will be dealt with. I would encourage people to be fair and honest in their attestations. Not being so will have ramifications for them afterwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much for clearing that up. Thank you again, Minister, for appearing. You're here lots these days. We do thank you for all the hard work that we know you and your staff right throughout the system have been doing.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Well, thank you. Thanks to everyone on here. Take care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go to officials. The speaking order to start with is Mr. Morantz and then Mr. McLeod. In the notice of meeting, all the officials' names are laid out, from the Canada Revenue Agency, the Department of Finance, and the Department of Employment and Social Development. If you want to ask a question to a specific individual, that would be helpful. If you don't do that, whoever wants to answer can. I can't see everybody on my screen. If you're putting up your hand, you may have to push your button and yell at me.

Marty, the floor is yours for a five-minute round.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions will be addressed to the CRA officials, anyone who wants to take them.

This morning in the National Post there was yet another report of a leak of what you may call guidance or a memo, directing the public service to approve CERB claims, even if someone had attested to the fact that they had either quit their job or had been fired for misconduct. I just want to ask if you're aware of this guidance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I expect that will be for Mr. Vermaeten.

Who wants to take it?

[Cliff C. Groen, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Canada - Benefit Delivery Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development]

That article actually referenced guidance within Service Canada, so I'll gladly answer that question.

That guidance is accurate, but there are a few things that I'd like to highlight.

First, when people are applying for the CERB, whether it be on the CRA site or on the Service Canada site, they do need to complete an attestation, and there is a very clear attestation element there that confirms the person has not quit their employment. Then, as part of the Service Canada application process, they go through the EI system. There are a number of different questions in the EI system, and a number of them do tie into the question of whether someone has quit. Under the EI program, and as well under CERB, people generally do not quit their employment. However, there are some situations in which people can legitimately quit their employment. An example would be if someone had because they needed to take care of their child because of that situation. Other times, there are other situations in which people can quit.

We are recording those answers. As part of the after-payment integrity measures, we will be reviewing those types of responses and ensuring that only the people who were qualified for the benefit are actually able to retain it.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

Do you have a copy of the guidance memo that was referred to in this morning's story?

[Cliff C. Groen]

Yes. That is internal guidance that we have for our staff.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Are you able to provide a copy of the guidance to the committee?

[Cliff C. Groen]

I don't believe that would be a problem. I will certainly follow up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Perhaps, Mr. Groen, you could send it to the clerk, and then we'll distribute it to committee members.

We'll not take time away. We're a little looser on time now that it's not the minister.

Marty, go ahead.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As an aside, my understanding is that people who applied for CERB actually made disclosure that they had been fired or lost their job, at least according to the article. I take it you're saying that is not the case. The article basically makes the case that there's no way you could collect money back from somebody who actually disclosed this, that they were fired for cause or quit and then got paid. I'm not sure how you would have a case to collect those monies back. I'm just mentioning that as a comment.

It's the same question, though, with respect to the National Post report earlier this week about the no “stop pay”. Have you seen that guidance?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

No stop pay—do you want to expand a little?

Do you know it, Mr. Groen?

[Cliff C. Groen]

Sure, certainly. I am very familiar with that article as well as with that guidance.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Do you have a copy of that guidance, as well?

[Cliff C. Groen]

It is very much connected guidance. It is connected to how we treat and process applications. We certainly do have that guidance.

Again, as part of the response to the committee, I would be able to provide that guidance.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

If you could provide that to the committee post-haste, I would appreciate it.

[Cliff C. Groen]

Certainly.

What I would like to highlight, however, is that again, as the minister indicated, priority in delivering the CERB has been about being able to pay people very quickly. If we had all the—

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

I have limited time, so I want to go on to my next question.

Was the guidance given by a cabinet minister?