Finance Committee on Feb. 4th, 2020

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that response.

My next question is for Chief Picard.

I appreciate your presentation today. It looks as though many parts of Canada share the same issues and problems. You talked about the indigenous people in jail at 30%. In the Northwest Territories, 83% of the people in jails are indigenous. That number is staggering. There are many issues and problems that we can point to, but the biggest challenge we have—and I think it's across the country—is the issue of indigenous housing.

I can't have a round table discussion on any issue in my riding without housing coming to the forefront, and once it does, it doesn't leave the table until the meeting concludes.

There was a budget of $600 million provided to the Assembly of First Nations. I'm just wondering if any of that money flowed to your part of the country to the Quebec AFN.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Thank you very much for the question.

The first thing I want to say on indigenous land stewardship is that it's key to understand that if there are no standards for indigenous traditional knowledge, then we're missing the point. We certainly agree with and are supportive of a national program that was launched just last week. Yes, we need to have more of that.

Now, to your question, I think it's very important to understand—we've been saying this for years—that if you don't concentrate on and invest in key determinants, you're bound to spend more on health, education and other areas. To me, it's very important that housing be considered as a central determinant because of population growth, for one. You don't see that anywhere else in Canada.

In response to your question, as a region, we get our share from the national budgets in housing, but the problem is that we always seem to be in a catch-up situation. I heard Mr. Lee's testimony and I respect it, but I don't necessarily share it, in the sense that there needs to be more spending when it comes to our people. When you look at the social and economic conditions, you see that Canada is faring equally or more than any of those other countries, but when you single out the situation of indigenous people in this country, Canada is losing ground. I think that's something that we don't know enough about.

In some communities.... I could drive with you just four hours into northern Quebec. There is a community there of 450 people. They have a sanitation utility which is collective for the whole community because they don't have electricity and don't have running water. They're just 45 minutes away from Val-d'Or, the closest city, and six kilometres away from the main highway. Why is it that we still have situations like that today?

Essentially, that's why we're saying that if we don't ensure that we catch up, then we're certainly condemned to be spending more in other areas. On housing, in Quebec alone we should be building 7,000 new homes in indigenous communities, just to catch up to the rates that we know of anywhere else in the province or even in the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Picard, kuei. Thank you for joining us today.

During the election campaign, I had the opportunity to take part with Mr. Blanchet in an activity on the reconciliation of peoples. It was held at the Kinawit cultural site in Val-d'Or. Among other things, we talked about the importance of nation-to-nation discussions and of respect between peoples.

In your opinion, what can the federal government do to enhance the recognition and equality of indigenous peoples in order to promote their development?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Clearly, we cannot deny that some quite outstanding efforts have been made over the past five years. As mentioned earlier, attempts have been made to eliminate boil water advisories in some communities. There is still work to be done. I think everyone knows that.

That said, I want to come back to what I said earlier to your colleague opposite. If I understood what was said, I fully agree with Mr. Lee that there must be targeted approaches for specific situations. This is the case with housing, for example. If we can fill the gaps in housing and ensure that our population has the same occupancy rates as the rest of the country, that will go a long way. In the long term, I think it will have an impact on health, education and a whole host of other things.

At the same time, however, we must work to ensure that first nations governments become legitimate governments. Unfortunately, this is still too much of a challenge for many governments at the national level. In my opinion, it is important to ensure—sort of in keeping with the principles of equalization of the transfers between the federal government and the provinces—that first nations governments also have the legitimate right, and even more, the actual ability to govern on behalf of their communities. For me, the true meaning of the nation-to-nation relationship includes this balance, which must be achieved.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I completely agree with you on that. Thank you for mentioning the example of Kitcisakik. Since I come from Abitibi-Témiscamingue, I use Highway 117 every day and that also concerns me. This situation is unacceptable, and even embarrassing for Canada.

You talked about housing as a social determinant. The question is no longer even how many housing units are available. In fact, there are often three or four families in the same housing unit. So building the housing units becomes a priority.

This brings me to my question: what is the cost of inaction? Have you ever measured the cost of the status quo for indigenous communities in relation to the cost of the investments to be made, particularly in social housing?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

That's the problem, we are floundering in social housing. We need another option: market housing. We are trying to move in that direction, but the problem then is the economic capacity of the communities. That is another aspect that merits consideration. Once again, very generally speaking, on every front, our communities lack the economic capacity that they should have and that is available elsewhere.

Here is the most glaring example: in Quebec, there are three so-called treaty groups, meaning that they have modern treaties. However, the shortcomings I see in the non-treaty groups also exist in those groups. We are therefore far from an ideal situation that would enable us to catch up. It is also important to point out that our population growth is unparalleled in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, and this must be taken into account.

So, all we are doing is passing the buck, leaving the problems that we are facing today as a legacy for our future generations. That is totally unacceptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I will continue with you, Chief Picard. We are very pleased to have you here today.

You mentioned having some catching up to do in addition to a crisis in child services and housing. In the documents you submitted, you talk about investments of about $4 billion over 10 years. However, in a crisis situation, shouldn't those investments be made now, in the next budget, in order to catch up and address those crises?

What is the impact of this lack of affordable and sound housing on first nations communities in Quebec and Canada? What does it mean? Does it mean that families share housing that is not healthy, for example? What does this lack of investment mean?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

In Quebec alone, it means 8,000 units that need immediate repair, and almost 4,000 units that need to be decontaminated. That is what happens when we wait. This also has to do with how precarious the program is. If, at the outset, the level of investment is insufficient to deal with certain conditions related to the climate or the transportation of materials, for example, a house built in Quebec City will not have the same value as a house built in a community accessible only by air.

Those technical aspects are therefore extremely important, but there is also the issue of funding, or rather investments. How is this projected over time? How do we ensure that we are able to address the population growth, already foreseeable with the data we have today?

Let me emphasize that there are huge repercussions in terms of education. Who can study in a house with 14 or 15 people when there should be four or five? That is the challenge today. Furthermore, we also have to look at issues related to social problems, promiscuity and health in general.

All these aspects merit consideration. That is why I was saying that, if we made targeted investments in housing, there would be positive effects in other areas in the long term.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to continue with Mr. Van Iterson and Ms. Daviet.

In your submission to the committee, you referenced committing to not introducing new subsidies for fossil fuels, not spending additional funds on the expansion of Trans Mountain pipeline and ending the EDC's financing and support of fossil fuels. We heard testimony yesterday from the Department of Finance, who are now talking about running the escalated costs of Trans Mountain—$15 billion to $17 billion, according to most estimates—through the Canada Account of the EDC. That means that the federal government would assume all of the risk of this massive subsidy. That would take fossil fuel subsidies into the stratosphere for a project that, the moment the updated construction schedule is announced, and those construction costs, the shippers will be allowed to pull out. That is why we've never had an update in five years around Trans Mountain.

When you consider how important these recommendations are from the Green Budget Coalition, to what extent do you think it would be wrong-headed of the government to simply, through the Canada Account, subsidize Trans Mountain by $15 billion to $17 billion when there are so many other pressing needs and we have the climate emergency upon us?

[Andrew Van Iterson]

The coalition has been really clear that we're fully opposed to any subsidies for fossil fuels, and I just learned the information about the Canada Account this morning. I think there is a long list of areas where it would be much better for the government to spend money in protecting Canada's environment and fighting back against climate change and creating jobs, as Ms. Petrevan explained earlier. We're fully opposed to any new subsidies to the Trans Mountain pipeline.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go to Mr. Morantz, and then over to Mr. Fraser.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

My question is for Mr. Brown. He is sitting there not getting any action, so I thought I would wake him up.

My question has to do with international trade and its impact on Canada's economy, particularly around an agreement called CIFTA, the Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement. Israel is one of Canada's major trading partners. The reason I'm asking this is that there seems to be a proliferation on university campuses over the last number of years of motions around boycott, divestment and sanctions; Israeli apartheid week, and those sorts of things.

Recently Parliament adopted the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, which is widely held to be applied to the idea that BDS is anti-Semitic in nature. I'm just wondering if your organization, the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations, has done any work to deal with these important issues.

[Adam Brown]

CASA exists to fundamentally advocate on post-secondary education: affordability, accessibility and quality. These sorts of debates that you're referring to, our organization does not take a stance on them as it is not a direct post-secondary issue. To my knowledge, none of our member associations are involved in those sorts of things, so I can't speak to it very much. Our organization focuses squarely on post-secondary education and the federal government.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Cumming, you have a couple of minutes left in that round.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Brown, welcome from Edmonton. It's good to see a U of A grad here. I'm glad you mentioned the good work of U of A students and those who contribute through polytechnic education, particularly NAIT.

I recognize that there's a lot of things here that you would like to see happen, all of which have, of course, a budget impact. Given that you come from a province that is struggling at this time with budgets and the current state of the resource industry because of some of the current policies in place, there's the potential for a lot of U of A grads—they've added a lot of value, as have NAIT students—to making the energy industry in Alberta one of the best in the world.

Has your group thought, particularly because you come from Alberta, about the business of how we continue to maintain market share or gain more market share for resource development and the methodology on how we extract, to prove to the rest of the world that we can be very effective and add to the economy of Canada to pay for some of those programs you're speaking of?

[Adam Brown]

When looking at things like market share resources, I think it's important to note aspects—just to refer here to to our pre-budget submission—of investments in research, for example, and the number of students who should be going into master's or Ph.D. studies to be able to innovate and create solutions, whether within the context of a post-secondary institution or taking it into private industry.

That accessibility is nowhere near where it should be, especially in comparison with many other countries with standing similar to Canada's. On that side, I think we need to take a serious look at financial aid for those graduate students, to help improve that market share and that innovation. Then, on the college and polytechnic side as well and the reference being made to that, Canada's aging population and the fact there are a lot of retirees have been referred to. I think it's important to note that this accessibility does need to be there equally for students to go into the trades, to be able to do applied research as well, or to be able to innovate on that side when they're building infrastructure, as mentioned in the presentation.

I think financial aid is the first big program that really does need to be looked at when we talk about how to improve our market share and whatnot. How do we get Canadians educated enough to give them the opportunities to create that market share and to expand in regard to those points you touched upon?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thanks, both of you.

Mr. Fraser, go ahead.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

When it rains, it pours. I'm going to toss a few questions Mr. Brown's way, but really one, because I'm going to be sharing my time with my colleague Mr. Fragiskatos.

I'm a former student leader of the CASA organization at StFX University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia. One of the points you made that I was really taken with is that you described—although it was in the climate context—how students are part of the solution going forward. I think that's obviously true, and not just in terms of climate change. It kills me when I see that there are business solutions, scientific developments and solutions to climate change that are locked in the mind of a kid who can't afford an education. We are all losing out when that child isn't able to go to university because they may have grown up in a low-income, debt-averse household.

You mentioned that we should have certain programs, like the Canada student grants program, that actually help on the front end. We increased, in the previous Parliament, the Canada student grants program by 50% and campaigned on a commitment to increase it further. I'm curious as to whether you have advice on how that can best be deployed to ensure that the entire nation benefits from this potential that's currently untapped, whether it's in the skilled trades, in science programming or in liberal arts backgrounds. How can we tailor the Canada student grants program to ensure that we allow that for students who are currently not pursuing an education because of the risk of taking on too much debt?

[Adam Brown]

That's a great question. Thank you for that.

As I mentioned, I think one of the biggest things is support for graduate students. The federal government does not offer any support through Canada student grants in the form of upfront and non-repayable grants for students to pursue graduate studies. To your point, it really does stifle that innovation, and there's this potential we have, whether we're talking in the context of combatting climate change or in terms of economic innovation or whatnot.

To Mr. Lee's point, with regard to the $28,000 debt, making sure these grants are targeted towards the people who most need them and can make the most use of them is extremely important and, on the other side as well, in looking at how Canada student grants can support college and polytechnic students. I'm not sure what the logic was behind not giving that $1,000 grant to college and polytechnic students who are trying to get that equipment in their first year, but it definitely stifles the inclination to want to continue if your first year is so expensive. You know that it may be cheaper later, but you do have to make it past that first year, and those finances can be very difficult. I think those are really important steps.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We won't have time for an answer to this, because I will pass my time to my colleague. If on the back end of this meeting you want to give feedback as to why the Canada student grants program would be better positioned than, say, SSHRC or NSERC scholarships for graduate programs, I'd be interested in your organization's feedback.

With that, I'll pass it off to my colleague.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Sean.

Ms. Petrevan, you are the third witness in two days to voice support for electric buses. You talked about a rebate program that would help municipalities cover the costs. Could you go into how that would work?

[Sarah Petrevan]

A rebate program could work in a way that is very similar to the way that a rebate program works for electric vehicles.

The reason we're proposing a rebate program versus a more targeted infrastructure program under the investing in Canada plan is the simplicity of how the program could be delivered, which is important not necessarily when you're looking at the larger municipalities so much, but when you're looking at smaller municipalities and their ability to file all of the necessary paperwork and go through all the necessary application processes. It also enables the government to give funding directly to municipal transit authorities without having to work through the bilateral agreements between the feds and the provinces.