Evidence of meeting #30 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Mark Farrant  Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Juries Commission
Keith Sullivan  President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers
Paul-Émile Cloutier  President and Chief Executive Officer, HealthCareCAN
Amanjit Lidder  Senior Vice-President, Taxation Services, MNP LLP
Carol Stephenson  Chair of the Board of Governors, Stratford Festival
Phillip Crawley  Publisher, President and Chief Executive Officer, Toronto, The Globe and Mail
Jerry Dias  President, Unifor
Jennifer Robson  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Anita Gaffney  Executive Director, Stratford Festival
Kim Drever  Regional Tax Leader, Edmonton, MNP LLP
Bradly Wouters  Executive Vice-President for Science and Research, University Health Network, and Representative, HealthCareCAN
Jeremy Rudin  Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions
Ben Gully  Assistant Superintendent, Regulation Sector, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

6:30 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Mr. Chair, in a moment I will call on my colleague to provide additional detail.

I think at a high level, what's important to keep in mind is that the banks need to have the capacity to absorb losses that will arise in difficult periods like the one we seem to be entering. For that they need to have high capital levels for loss-absorbing capacity. We've created a system in Canada where we build up that loss-absorbing capacity in good times by raising the domestic stability buffer so that we can lower it at times like these, and banks will be able to continue to provide financial services to Canadians.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thanks very much.

Are our banks stable—

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I believe Mr. Gully was going to come in there as well, Peter.

Were you, Mr. Gully? Go ahead.

6:30 p.m.

Assistant Superintendent, Regulation Sector, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Ben Gully

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to build on that, the domestic stability buffer was built up as a war chest in good times for use in more difficult times, such as the ones we see. The lesson from history has been that without those reserves in place, banks can tighten and restrict lending, which can exacerbate a downturn and the damage to the economy. That war chest is there, and hence the buffer to absorb some of those shocks.

There's one other example that may be useful. On loan deferrals that are being offered by banks, we have made it clear that they should not be treated as past due or delinquent. What that means is that on the amount of capital that banks have to hold against those loans, the increase is limited. Those increases are not happening. Again, it's preserving capital for broader lending and continued economic activity.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

No, thank you very much. Again, it's all an attempt to put forward questions that will ultimately be heard by constituents. In going back to first principles, I think you've explained it very well.

Perhaps I could also follow that up, and I know you touched on this in your presentation and some of the questions with Mr. Poilievre. Our banks are stable. They're not facing challenges when it comes to lending capacity. You do not foresee that happening in the future.

6:30 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, the entire financial system is resilient and well prepared for where we are.

Is our system facing challenges? Clearly it's facing challenges. Financial institutions, much like our own organization, were obliged to move many people to a work-from-home situation in order to protect the health and safety of their employees. They had a lot of technological capacity they could draw on, but I won't say they weren't challenged. They were certainly challenged by the volumes at call centres as they moved their call centre employees to home as well.

In terms of lending capacity, this is very much restricted or regulated by the capital requirement. Having raised the capital requirement for our major banks in good times, and being in a position, then, to lower it significantly, lending capacity should not be an issue.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Naturally, there are going to be questions when we have an economic crisis along the lines that we are currently experiencing. There will be questions about the stability of the overall banking system, but putting it on the record that our system is very stable and will remain so into the future, I think, can only add to confidence.

I wanted to ask you also about how this current situation differs from 2008, and specifically what that has meant for OSFI's response, compared to what we saw in 2008.

6:30 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Mr. Chair, there are some very important differences between this situation and the global financial crisis that began in 2008. For one thing, the global financial crisis was a shock that originated within the financial system, although not the Canadian financial system but the global one. This made it difficult for the financial system as a whole to continue to operate and support the economy.

We learned a lot of lessons from the global financial crisis. As I said in my opening remarks, even though the Canadian financial system did very well in the global financial crisis, we very much strengthened the capital liquidity and risk management requirements that we impose on our banks so that we'd be better prepared for this shock, which is one that has come from outside the financial system rather than inside.

It's always our responsibility, given to us by Parliament, to look out for the interests of the depositors, the policyholders, other creditors to the banks and insurers. We are keenly aware of the need to learn the lessons of history, and that has helped us much better prepare the system.

The other thing that I think is very important in this regard is the work that other federal agencies have been doing to support the system. One lesson that we learned from the global financial crisis was the importance of the central bank to be able to provide liquidity to the banking system when there's a disruption of this type. The response of the Bank of Canada has been exemplary and very important in getting us through the first acute phase of this crisis, and draws very much on the lessons that we all learned in 2008.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay. Thank you for that.

Go ahead, Alexis.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for being here.

I may take you where you didn't expect to go, but I'm sure we can clarify a few things together.

First, can you tell us briefly if, in general, credit cards are regulated in Canada and, essentially, how are they regulated?

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

There are two aspects to the regulation of credit cards, perhaps even three, but certainly at least two.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Could you speak to that briefly, for the committee's information?

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

OSFI monitors the risk management practices of all portfolios, including credit cards. There are regulations in the act that governs the relationships between banks and credit-card holders. They do not cover all aspects, but they do contain disclosure provisions.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I see.

Can you tell me as clearly as possible who gets the interest money when a consumer doesn't pay his or her card balance? Does it go to the credit card issuers and the banks?

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

I'm not sure I understood the question.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

When the balance is not paid, does the interest accrue to the banks and credit card issuers?

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

All right. Basically, Visa and MasterCard finance themselves with the unpaid balances.

Globally, 60% and 26% of transactions are made through Visa and MasterCard respectively. Do you know what the percentages are in Canada?

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Unfortunately, I don't have those figures.

6:35 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

They are probably quite similar.

What I want to emphasize is that this is almost a monopoly. Many merchants have called me about interchange fees. I don't know if you know what those fees are. Right now, I don't think they're regulated. These merchants today pay 2% to 3% interchange fees. You may have different numbers. In Europe and Australia, it's 0.3%.

Do you think that would be a good way to—

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Alexis and Mr. Rudin, some of this area is really the government's decision to make.

I don't want to put Mr. Rudin in a spot of having to.... He has to abide by what the established government policy is. I think your question related to exchange rates is more for the finance minister's perspective rather than Mr. Rudin's.

Mr. Rudin, if you want to add anything to that, go ahead.

6:35 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Thank you Mr. Chair.

I think you understand the situation well.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Alexis, go ahead.

Alexis, did we lose you?

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I had lost my connection, but I'm back online.

I wanted the superintendent's opinion on interchange fees. Is that possible, Mr. Chair? If he can regulate them...

Can you hear me well?

6:40 p.m.

Superintendent of Financial Institutions, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions

Jeremy Rudin

Yes, I heard the question well.

We have no power to regulate interchange fees. That is a power Parliament has not given us.