Finance Committee on May 21st, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, James. We'll have to end it there.

I would suggest to the minister that maybe other considerations need to be given on the wage subsidy. Is there some scenario whereby you could go to a 50% wage subsidy rather than a 75% one? It's just a thought. Maybe there are some other scenarios that need to be looked at as we go down the road, rather than the straight 75%.

We'll turn to Ms. Koutrakis for five minutes, and then we'll go to one question from Mr. Cumming and one from Ms. Dzerowicz.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Ng, for your presentation today at the finance committee.

I was listening very carefully to your opening statement. What caught my attention was that you heard from small business owners about the need to be flexible and balanced, so thank you very much on behalf of my constituents and the small businesses in the Vimy riding. It's great that you, your colleagues and the civil servants have been so open in listening and changing as we need to change.

It was a great segue to Mr. Cumming's talking about the supply chain. In the near future, the finance committee will be holding a panel on Canadian self-sufficiency and supply chains. Self-sufficient production of medical equipment and a made-in-Canada solution to COVID-19 are incredibly important issues to me. Can you comment on the steps that this government has taken to ensure that small businesses can play a role in Canadian medical self-sufficiency, whether that be through the production of PPE, medical equipment, testing kits or eventually a vaccine for COVID-19, including potential export opportunities that you may see?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Small businesses absolutely are playing a role. As I said earlier, over 5,000 businesses have stood up and retooled to make masks, gowns, sanitizers, ventilators and a range of other needs. Those companies include small and medium-sized companies.

With regard to supply chains, it's really important that we continue to help our Canadian businesses so that they are export-ready and continue exporting. I have continued to do the work with countries in the G20 and G7 and with the CPTPP countries to ensure that we keep supply chains open so that goods and services continue to move, particularly for those that are essential and that require the movement of those goods beyond our borders. We're going to make sure that we continue that work to support our Canadian businesses, particularly the small businesses, in accessing those customers and those opportunities, whether they're domestic or abroad.

Right now, our focus has certainly been on making sure that Canadian companies have the support they need to weather this difficult period. Researchers and innovators are working together to develop a vaccine, and we're supporting those innovative businesses and researchers.

With regard to companies that are retooling, we're absolutely supporting them, and for the agricultural businesses that continue to move goods across Canada and into the international marketplace, we're ensuring that they are supported at this time, particularly through our incredible trade commissioner service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You may ask a fairly quick last question, Annie.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Many of these small businesses are exporting their goods. Minister, what are some of the unique challenges that Canadian companies are facing during the new realities of this pandemic?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm really proud that the trade commissioner service has been hands-on in providing access to information about how our Canadian small and medium-sized businesses can continue doing their work in exporting and has been working with them to ensure that they can still do the exporting, as they are, and that they're supported through our many missions across the world.

I often say that the trade commissioner service is Canada's best sales force, operating in 160 offices. They're working virtually. They continue to help our Canadian exporters through this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

You may ask a single question, Mr. Cumming, and then it's Ms. Dzerowicz, and we'll wrap it up. We have another panel in waiting.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Minister, again, for being here today.

We have the CEBA loan program. For most of the businesses I talk to, that may cover their deferrals and some of their costs during this crisis, and you have a rent program that's going to take care of their back rent. The big issue, however, is that as we start to see these businesses open, they will have virtually no working capital. They'll be able to start, but they have no ability to pay, no ability to put inventory in place.

What is the plan you're working on to make sure that when those businesses reopen, they will have a shot at survival?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

That's such an important question. You're absolutely right. My department and I talk to businesses, and this issue for sure has been raised with us. I want to assure you that we are listening to those businesses and taking in their needs for additional support. We're going to keep doing this work to make sure they are supported, not only during this pandemic crisis right now but in their opening and restart.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I wouldn't wait too long.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you both.

On that point—and I think I've spoken to you on this before, Madam Minister—that may be an area that regional development agencies could look at. I know they don't provide working capital at the moment, but we've provided a lot more money to regional development agencies, and maybe they need to be looking at the aspect of coming up with some working capital for these small businesses.

Ms. Dzerowicz, you have one question, please.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks so much, Minister. Thanks for your extraordinary hard work during these last few weeks and months. We really appreciate all your efforts to support small businesses across Canada, especially your work to support women entrepreneurs.

I'm going to follow along the line that Mr. Cumming was mentioning.

A lot of small businesses are thinking about how they're going to be reopening. They know they're going to have reduced capacity in the foreseeable future. One of the things we're noticing is that there are big differences among the digital capabilities of businesses. I wonder whether you're starting to think about how we might be able to support small businesses in this area moving forward.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you so much for that question.

The answer is yes, of course. In fact, I'm drawing from some really good examples of what is happening already during this time. Those businesses that have been able to pivot and create a digital presence or a greater digital presence are able to offset some of the losses they're getting because of closing their doors.

I like telling the story of a great woman entrepreneur out of Atlantic Canada whose business had only been open for two months. It's a bakery business. She had to shut her doors, of course, because of the requirements, but here's what she did.

She shut her doors. She has five employees. She used the wage subsidy to be able to pay those employees, half of whom are bakers. She managed to take the CEBA loan, and with that CEBA loan paid the top-up of 25%, so her employees are whole. She also invested in a new online ordering system. A couple of her staff now are working on those order intakes and so forth. She's managed to be able to get additional revenue to supplement what she's not able to do in her front door business. That's but one example among many.

The answer is yes, and we're very much thinking about how we can further support businesses in this way.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Madam Minister, that's a good positive note to close on, but I do have, if I could put it this way, a burr under my saddle on one issue. You mentioned it at the beginning. That's the CEBA, the Canada emergency business account, and the fact that people who use a personal chequing account rather than a business account don't qualify.

The executive branch has to find a way to deal with that. These people with a personal chequing account might have done it because it was cheaper for them in the beginning. They started that way and maintained it. They do have a bank account; it's just not the more expensive business account.

They have T4s. Most of them do. I know one who puts out $87,000 in T4s. They can show the T4s and they can show their CRA account. They can provide the income tax documents. They should qualify, so I'd say let's get it done.

On that, I thank you very much for the information you provided, for answering our questions, and for appearing before the committee today. I wish you and your staff, and the others around you in the department, much success moving forward.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you so very much for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

With that, we will suspend for a few minutes. We have eight groups on the next panel, so we're really going to have to tighten it up.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I officially call this meeting back to order. It's meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance, and we have the second of three panels today.

Just for the record, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, March 24, the committee is meeting on the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

We will forgo the rest of the formalities and go straight to our witnesses. I ask witnesses to try hold their remarks to five minutes. It's unusual for us to have eight witnesses, but we have a lot of interest in this panel, so if you can hold your remarks to five minutes, it would be helpful in allowing us to get in enough rounds of questions.

We will start with the Canadian Juries Commission and Mark Farrant, chief executive officer.

Mr. Farrant, the floor is yours.

[Mark Farrant, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Juries Commission]

Thank you, and thank you, honourable members of the finance committee, for the opportunity to appear before you once again.

I would like to take a moment to recognize the incredible work of this committee during this global catastrophe and to thank you on behalf of all Canadians.

I'm here today to discuss the looming crisis within our courthouses that is threatening our justice system and the democracy of our citizens.

The COVID-19 pandemic has impacted every industry and sector like nothing in our history, and our courts and justice system are no exception. The closure of courthouses across the country as part of the emergency public health measures has created an enormous backlog of criminal cases, delaying trials and due process. Once regular court operations resume, there will be an unprecedented requirement for empanelling juries, and while appearing for a summons is mandatory, I feel many Canadians will be very reluctant to do so.

Recently, several Supreme Court justices raised concerns about the timeliness of trials—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mark, I told you to take five minutes, but I will have to get you to slow down a little. It's really difficult for our translators under this fashion, so slow down a little, please.

[Mark Farrant]

I apologize.

Supreme Court justices raised concerns about the timeliness of trials once courts resume, especially with respect to criminal and civil trials. I second these concerns, along with the expectations being placed upon potential jurors. Extremely resistant and unwilling to respond to a jury summons in the post-pandemic environment, many Canadians will not be equipped to serve on a lengthy trial so soon after the crisis, yet this will be the expectation.

Transitioning out of a period of unemployment, layoffs and tenuous employment, the focus for many Canadians will now be on their jobs and availability for work. Many will be experiencing financial hardships not seen in decades and still have family care commitments that will not have expired. Also worried about their own personal health, they will be fearful of close proximity to others in court and the confinement of jury duty.

The fears of infection will be starkly elevated among our senior citizens, a large proportion of whom sit on juries.

Canadian workplaces will be less willing or sympathetic to support employees during time spent in court, given their own economic fragility and desire to revitalize operations, putting mounting pressure on employees to respect their employers over their summons.

This current crisis will only serve to compound and deepen the foundational concerns for jury duty raised by the Canadian Juries Commission when we first appeared before you on February 6, 2020.

Jury duty is the last mandatory civic duty. Failure to show for a summons is punishable by a fine or imprisonment, yet I fear Canadians will be forced to make terrible choices between safety, duty and fines.

Jurors are an integral component of the court. Judges, legal counsel, court staff, police and first responders are afforded access to new and evolving evidence-based treatments, but the jury is not.

Alarming data has emerged during the pandemic highlighting the significant worsening of Canadians' mental health, raising concern among health care professionals about a looming echo mental health crisis.

The recent announcement by the federal government of significant mental health investments to address this present challenge must be met with similar funding for jury duty. Juror mental health requires a specific intervention through evidence-based assessment and treatment and trauma-informed approaches. This intervention must be given the same priority and made available to all regions of the country. Such is the mandate of the Canadian Juries Commission.

Given the deep concerns for jury duty, the Canadian Juries Commission would like to highlight the services we have in development now, which will provide critical support to the provinces and territories in managing juries, courthouses and support for jurors themselves. Our digital application will be made available to all Canadians free of cost, providing much-needed information about jury duty procedure and mental health solutions, with connections to practitioners and programs. It will be available in both official languages, as well as indigenous languages and others where appropriate.

Our online mental health, first aid and crisis management training for courthouses, court staff and officers managing jurors will be available across the country in order to fulfill a critical need. As Canadians begin to return to work, our jury duty workplace tool kit will assist employers and managers to help support employees as they transition through jury duty. Our much-needed juror peer support network is modelled after successful programs used by first responders, the military and veterans and has peer counsellors on standby awaiting training.

Our evidence-based assessment and clinical treatment programs, in partnership with organizations like CAMH and the Canadian Mental Health Association, will provide trauma-informed supports across the country to jurors following clinical best practices.

Honourable members, these are solutions that are needed now. These are solutions we can implement in time to meet the demand when courthouses reopen in the fall.

We were honoured to be included in this committee's first report among recommendations to the finance ministry to provide $20 million in funding over 10 years to the Canadian Juries Commission to support juror mental health.

The Canadian Juries Commission respectfully asks the members of the Standing Committee on Finance to champion your unanimous recommendation to provide 10 years of stable funding now for the commission, so that as courthouses reopen after the COVID crisis, our programs can meet the needs of Canadians serving on juries.

We hereby also request that jury duty be added to the list of federal essential services to combat COVID-19 as part of Canada's post-COVID recovery efforts. This will send the right message to all Canadians and build confidence in the system.

Thank you for allowing me to appear before you once again today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much, Mark.

We'll turn to the Fish, Food and Allied Workers and Mr. Sullivan, president. I believe Mr. Dias is with him as well.

Mr. Sullivan, the floor is yours.

[Keith Sullivan, President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers]

Thank you very much.

The Fish, Food and Allied Workers—Unifor represents 15,000 working women and men throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. Most of our members are employed in the fishing industry and are spread out in more than 500 communities in every region of the province. There are 10,000 employed in fish harvesting and 3,000 in fish processing.

COVID-19 has had a devastating impact on our province's fishing industry. Many fisheries have been delayed by more than a month at what would have been the beginning of valuable crab and lobster seasons, due to safety concerns related to the pandemic. Now that fisheries are up and running in Newfoundland, market challenges are severely impacting incomes.

To put it in context, last year's fishery was worth $1.5 billion to the economy. The snow crab fishery alone was valued at more than $350 million at the dock. Losses related to the pandemic could amount to hundreds of millions of dollars, and this is devastating for coastal communities.

Workers continue to be concerned about safety on the job and about how a shortened season will impact their income. Both harvesters and plant workers rely on employment insurance to supplement income during the off-season. For harvesters, these EI benefits are based on earnings, not insurable hours. With most harvesters expecting a significant decline in earnings this year, many were rightly worried about qualifying for benefits once the fishing season ends. They were relieved to hear the federal government's announcement last week of changes to fishing EI so that harvesters can use the previous year's earnings to qualify in 2020, in addition to the new wage subsidy and grant for fishing enterprise owners.

It will be important to ensure that these programs are implemented to achieve their intended goals and that harvesters don't fall through the cracks. Consideration must be given to fishing enterprises that are severely impacted or have no opportunity at all to sell their catch.

Processing workers face similar struggles. Those workers rely on EI benefits and were left out of the recent federal announcement for harvesters. Like harvesters, processing workers are on the front lines, working to provide fresh, high-quality seafood to domestic and international markets, feeding coastal communities and supporting many fishing families.

Given the delays in the season and the market challenges that have limited the amount of seafood we will process and export, many processing workers may see reduced work and income, and thus may not have enough hours to qualify for adequate EI benefits to carry them through until next year. These workers will need support from the government, either by an extension to CERB or through changes to seasonal EI, similar to the recent changes to fishing EI that will ensure they can qualify based on last year.

The inshore fishery is the primary economic driver in a majority of our coastal communities. Jobs in the fishery provide good middle-class incomes in rural communities, which is why support for the industry in the short term is so critical. Protecting and promoting a fishery that serves communities, addresses challenges in food security and provides good wages and safe workplaces must be priorities for all levels of government and all stakeholders in our industry if we want to come out of this pandemic with vibrant and sustainable coastal communities and an economy where no one is left behind.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

My apologies for not getting you on last week when all the other fish organizations were on. The slate was full, if I can put it that way.

We'll turn to HealthCareCAN, with Paul-Émile Cloutier and Mr. Wouters.

Please go ahead, Mr. Cloutier.

[Paul-Émile Cloutier, President and Chief Executive Officer, HealthCareCAN]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Many thanks to the committee for the opportunity to present to you today.

I'm joined by my colleague, Dr. Brad Wouters of UHN, who can take part of any detailed questions you may have during the question and answer period.

I would like to start with the general but very important observation regarding all the organizations I represent. Does the Government of Canada consider the research hospital network and its research institutes on an equal footing with the private sector? Our network is a major economic driver and its research brings tremendous value to public health and to Canadians.

The second question that I would put to you is this: Are we really prepared to do some soul-searching and review our practices vis-à-vis a health system that has shown obvious weaknesses, a lack of national coordination, a major financial crisis and depleted human resources?

When Canadians think of health care institutions, they think of life-saving care delivered to those who need it and available when they need it. That is true and it is important. Indeed, it is foundational, but there is another side to Canada's community of health care institutions that is less well understood. Canada's health care institutions are world-class hubs for research, innovation and commercialization in the field of health. Research institutes based in health care are developing answers to the great questions of the day, working at the bleeding edge of disciplines that run the gamut from precision genomics to population health.

Health care institutions across Canada are a major economic force in Canada, employing over 650,000 employees, 8,000 to 10,000 scientists and 60,000 research staff and students. That workforce supplies the raw talent for Canada's $7.8 billion biotech industry and generates untold knock-on economic benefits for Canada.

The federal funding for wage support announced by the government last Friday was met with great relief by the health research community and may have avoided the loss of up to 15,000 jobs in May alone. We are sincerely grateful for the government's consideration and foresight in this matter.

Canada's health care organizations have taken extraordinary steps to provide care to Canadians throughout this pandemic. Steps that have been taken required major investments and incurred unforeseen expenses. The federal government has been highly responsive to Canadian businesses and has not hesitated to take steps to mitigate their significant financial losses.

The health care system—including long-term care and home care—should and must receive equal attention from the Government of Canada. The Canadian hospital system must be given access to contingency assistance programs and what's more, this decision must be viewed as one that will be carried out in the future.

With a projected deficit of $250 billion, what does the future hold for Canada's health care system and all the researchers who support it? We cannot afford to gamble on the future. The health of Canadians deserves more than a debate between governments in a power struggle that too often proves unproductive and ineffective.

With that in mind, Mr. Chair, I would ask the committee to consider the role the federal government should play in striking a better balance across jurisdictions in order to support a health system reeling from the epidemic.

Thank you very much.