Finance Committee on May 26th, 2020

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think you've all stressed the importance of the transportation system to regular Canadians, to students, seniors, low-income families, essential workers and front-line workers. If we see what I believe you're talking about, which is the largest collapse of public transit in Canadian history unless the federal government takes its responsibilities, that will have a profound impact on people right across this country.

Mr. D'Angelo, I'd like to come back to you particularly when it comes to paratransit. A lot of people with disabilities use the transit systems, very often specific services. What will be the impact if the federal government doesn't step up in the next few days with the $400 million per month you're asking for to get us through this crisis? Secondly, how important is it to ensure the operating expenses of transit systems so we don't see the largest collapse of public transit in Canadian history?

[Marco D'Angelo]

In terms of accessibility it's had quite an impact, and accessible transit is in communities big and small across the country. A lot of people who work in that industry are casual or part-time. Because of the lack of ridership, there have been some layoffs. It's really important that those lifelines will be there for those people who rely on those services, especially once day programs get started up, for example, for seniors or the developmentally challenged. Oftentimes when cuts are made, we want to make sure those who need it the most aren't the hardest hit. That's why we think it's important that both senior levels of government get together as soon as possible.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Buy, you have shared some discussions you've had with the federal government around instituting and providing supports, for example, for BC Ferries, which is absolutely essential for the west coast of this country.

Can you share the correspondence you've sent and you've received thus far? Your request seems to be a very specific one that should have been implemented and I can't for the life of me understand why it hasn't.

[Serge Buy]

I will share what I can, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you. That will be very helpful. In fact, in all of your cases, the more you can share with the committee, the more we can go to bat. I fear we've had these discussions now for a couple of months and we're now at a critical point where either our transit and transportation systems collapse or the federal government takes on its responsibilities.

Thank you for the time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go to Mr. Doherty for four minutes.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, sir.

I just want to echo the comments of my colleague, Mr. Julian, as somebody who has spent 20-plus years in the transportation industry. Our recovery is going to be fundamentally tied to our nation's recovery and to the movement of goods and people. So, right across the spectrum I appreciate the testimony that we've heard today.

Mr. McKenna, I have a question for you. Many of my colleagues within my Conservative caucus and I would imagine many on this panel have received comments from constituents. Thousands and thousands of Canadians have been impacted. They had booked tickets for air travel and due to no fault of their own, obviously, those flights and those trips have been cancelled.

What is the Air Transport Association's position on the refund issue? You can't open a newspaper or turn on the media without seeing another story of another Canadian impacted by this.

[John McKenna]

I'm just surprised it took so long for that question to be tabled.

I think that carriers right now are struggling to survive; they don't have the cash flow. Not everybody has the same philosophy as far as our current policy on reimbursement goes. Many have done it. The few that don't have really caught the headlines.

I think that everybody, once they get past the hurdle of survival, will certainly do everything in their power to retain or re-attract those customers. I don't think they want to act this way; I just don't think they have the capacity to do so right now.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Right.

Again, I don't think we can overstate the importance of air service into our rural communities, and to our communities in general. It connects families and it moves goods. I always said in my air service development days that air service attracts business to rural communities. It's very important, so thank you for that. I can't say enough about the great job our carriers do.

As an aviation family, I have family members who have been employed and impacted directly by the downturn.

We are about 11 weeks into this pandemic and this crisis, and you're saying that the discussions are just beginning with the government. That has to be disappointing when other countries have acted fast. Mr. D'Angelo commented on the transit sector, but that has to be disappointing for our aviation sector as well.

[John McKenna]

Yes, it's most frustrating also because time is of the essence here.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Correct.

[John McKenna]

For all modes of transport...but aviation has a particularly high fixed cost to meet, and they're just not doing it right now.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Our local airport just announced today that in terms of year over year, where last year 42,911 passengers flew through our airport, in the month of April this year there were 1,089 passengers. I think that is pretty indicative and systemic of what we're seeing right across the board.

Mr. McKenna, would you say that you can't just flip a switch and turn things back on? This is going to be a prolonged recovery.

[John McKenna]

Yes, for a number of reasons but consumer behaviour is going to be key in this, and opening up of the borders and so on; these are all factors that play into it. In fact, the International Air Transport Association, IATA, thinks it's going to take until 2023 before we get back to 2019 levels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we will have to end it there. Thank you all.

We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz, and then we'll go on to Elizabeth May for a couple of questions.

Julie.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thanks so much.

I want to thank everyone for their excellent presentations and for the great discussion today.

My first question is going to be directed to Mr. D'Angelo.

I read with interest a May 8 announcement, and you did refer to it. The B.C. provincial government had put out an announcement with TransLink that said two key things. They said they were working on a comprehensive solution with TransLink to address the major financial impacts during COVID-19. Then there was also a review of the transit service levels to ensure right levels, and they were looking to restart B.C.

Has that kind of model been done in all provinces with their major cities or their major transit systems?

[Marco D'Angelo]

Yes. In Toronto they have been working on what different levels of service will look like and what systems—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

With the province?

[Marco D'Angelo]

With the province, yes—and what systems can accommodate.

In a riding like Davenport, we're still seeing overcrowding even today on buses that travel through there to get essential workers to and from work.

That's why we think it's so important that the federal government take the lead on this with the provinces. As Mayor Tory said last Friday, we are facing a critical time and we can't wait any longer.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Just so you know, I'm a born and bred downtown Torontonian. I can assure you that you do not have to tell me about the importance of our TTC to our lives here.

I know that two-thirds of the revenue for the TTC is actually via the fare box, and I know that ridership has fallen around 90%. Has the temporary decline in the revenue been offset by any operational changes or any other overall adjustments?

[Marco D'Angelo]

Yes. There have been some layoff notices that were announced in recent weeks but, again, as cities reopen it's totally the opposite of what's needed to respect physical distancing and help people to get back to work.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That has been the only thing...just looking at some layoffs.

[Marco D'Angelo]

I would say also some diesel, because we've heard that service reductions are down a little. Repairs might be down a little, but overall, cities are providing full transit to those million people, and we need almost the full service to respect the two-metre rule and have adequate frequency. That's the challenge that lies before us and why we're asking the federal government to lead the discussion.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay.

I'm going to continue the line of questioning that Ms. Koutrakis had started around the $400 million and how you're hoping to spend it. I'd love a few more details.

This $400 million that you're asking for, is it for a six-month period, or a one-year period? Is it directly just to help recoup, to make sure that we're paying the drivers, and are you asking an equal amount of the province?

[Marco D'Angelo]

It's a global figure of $400 million a month, and we're open to whichever way the federal and provincial governments can find agreement on how to split that. The bottom line is that this is what our systems are losing on a monthly basis.

As riders return, that amount would taper down until we land at a level of ridership such that our system would once again be sustainable.