Finance Committee on June 11th, 2020

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is on a completely different subject.

When you make eligibility for the Canada emergency business account more flexible, it would be important to allow small businesses that operate with the owner's personal account to have access to the program. The number of refusals on the basis of this criterion alone would be several hundred. In addition, Quebec would be more affected than the other provinces because it is home to 28% of the independent small businesses in Canada.

I fully understand the argument that it is not possible to exercise the same control over personal accounts as over business accounts to combat money laundering. In my view, the solution in this regard would be to simply ask these companies to open a corporate account so that they can have access to the emergency account program.

As part of these more flexible criteria, could you allow small businesses with personal accounts to take out a loan under the program, provided they open a business account? This would mean removing the requirement that they had to have a business account already open at the start of the pandemic.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

During a crisis, it is important to consider interesting ideas, and your suggestion is one of them. We are currently looking at how we can broaden the eligibility of businesses for this emergency account.

As you know, 650,000 companies already have such an account—so it went very well.

Our analysis of the situation will allow us to say more about this. I am confident that we will be able to announce a broadening of this emergency account next week. If more can be done, rest assured that we will take your suggestion into account.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

It would be amazing to see this change implemented next week.

I'd like to ask one last question.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I haven't said exactly what we're going to have, but I'm listening.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That's fine, thank you.

I have another quick question about the economic update.

We've been asking you questions about this for a month, but you always give us the same answer. However, according to the Bloomberg news agency, a budget update could be in the works for the summer.

Can we expect you to table it on July 8, when we sit in the House?

Also, why inform Bloomberg before you tell the MPs about it?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I can assure you that we have not yet decided exactly what the next steps will be, because the economy is still unstable at the moment.

We need to be very clear about our investments and forecasts. As I said, when the situation is more stable, we will have more to say about it. In my opinion, I do not have enough information to present a complete plan.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today. We hope your families are safe and healthy.

Thank you, Mr. Morneau, for coming back yet again to the finance committee. Through this crisis, you've been very available not only for meetings with the finance critics, but also with the finance committee. The meetings are not always easy, but we appreciate your availability, and certainly your ear.

My first question is very simple. We've been told by OSFI that, in terms of liquidity support, Canadian banks have received access to about $750 billion in liquidity support. That's three-quarters of a trillion dollars. As you know, they have made $5 billion in profits thus far during the pandemic, but we are hearing from small businesses that can't access credit. We are hearing from people who are seeing their lines of credit and their credit card numbers going up. There are penalties and fees being imposed by the banks, and folks are paying interest charges that are, frankly, unreasonable in a pandemic.

My question is very simple. With all this largesse, this $750 billion in liquidity support, why have you not imposed any requirements on the banks to actually provide support to people who are trying to survive this pandemic?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you for your continued focus on how we can support Canadians.

I would say that in fact we have pushed hard for the banking sector to support its customers, and of course that means supporting Canadians. We worked hard to encourage the banks to get to an ability for those in challenge with their credit cards to defer their credit card payments and to take down the interest charges. In most cases, they're now half of what they were before the pandemic. I think that was certainly a positive step for us working together.

I think in terms of the liquidity that we put in the market for banks to use, I'd just like to give you some statistics.

According to the Bank of Canada, total business financing growth increased to 10.7% in April from 7.4% in March. Loan growth was very strong at 30%, driven by non-mortgage loans. These figures don't include the now over 665,000 businesses that got the CEBA loan. I'll also tell you that this week the big six banks reported payments deferred on $67 billion worth of loans.

Mr. Julian, I will always be working hard to push the banks to make sure that they're supporting their customers. We are absolutely expecting everyone to play a part in this challenge.

The money we've put into people's hands directly, supplemented by those loan deferrals, means we've very much filled an important gap in the economy, but there is more to do. We will be expecting all participants to do more to help us get through this.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I would say and suggest that with all the loan guarantees being offered, we've socialized the risk and continue to privatize the profit, but I'll move on to my next question.

For people with disabilities, for one one-thousandth of what is being provided to Canada's big banks, every person with a disability across the country could receive a small benefit of $600 to weather this crisis. There was a misfire with the government's announcement that it would only apply to people who have the disability tax credit, which means, largely, people with disabilities who have a taxable income. However, the poorest of the poor among people with disabilities are not covered, yet within the Canada Revenue Agency you have access to information on those who receive the CPP disability, those who use alternative formats through disabled access to CRA, and through the T5007, access to who is getting disability supports through the provinces.

Why are you not extending the benefit to every person with a disability?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Peter, that's the last question.

Mr. Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Julian, I appreciate your bringing this up. We were extremely disappointed that we were not able to move forward on the measure that was going to provide $600 to people with disabilities across the country, a very large number of people with disabilities.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It would be 40%.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I think you point out appropriately that there are different ways that different parts of the economy look at people with disabilities. Obviously, we came up with an approach that we thought would have a very significant impact on a very large cross-section of people experiencing particular challenges. I'm just hoping that we can get this back on track, because to me it's unacceptable that we can't actually deliver on what we're trying to deliver for people with disabilities.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

However, is it—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both. Peter, we're over the time.

We're turning to Mr. Cooper, and Ms. Dzerowicz will wrap it up.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you to the officials, and thank you, Mr. Minister, for appearing, not just today, but for providing regular updates before our committee. It's appreciated and important.

I want to ask you a question about the Auditor General. Both the outgoing Auditor General and the incoming Auditor General have stated publicly that the Office of the Auditor General is underfunded by approximately $11 million. As a result, performance audits have been reduced in half over the last number of years, and due to the government's COVID expenditures, nearly all non-COVID-related audits will be put off this year.

What is your government going to do to remedy that and provide the Auditor General with the $11 million she needs to do her job?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First of all, Mr. Cooper, let me thank you for bringing up the Auditor General. I'm obviously very pleased that we've been able to appoint the new Auditor General. I think she will do a spectacular job. We know that she has significant experience and she'll bring that experience and a fresh look at what is a very important parliamentary role.

As you probably also know, we have increased funding for the Auditor General over the years. We've increased the number of positions in the Auditor General's office, or increased funding so they can increase the positions. I understand that the number of positions has been increased by 38 people.

What's incumbent on us is to work together with the new Auditor General to make sure that we ensure the office has the requisite ability to perform the function, so I will commit that it's an ongoing goal we have and we'll work together with her to do that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Minister, in light of your commitment to working with the Auditor General, when can the Office of the Auditor General expect to receive the funding?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

She's now new in her role, and that is appropriately something we should work together with her on to get to the conclusion that ensures the office has the support required and the appropriate level of support to do the function.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, the office doesn't have sufficient support, not when performance audits have been reduced in half, not when almost all non-COVID-related audits have been put off, and indeed the outgoing Auditor General said they'd probably need another year to deal with the COVID-related expenditures alone.

Thus, we have a government right now that is spending half a trillion dollars and the Auditor General is asking for $11 million.

In regard to half a trillion dollars in spending, $11 million constitutes a rounding error. What's the holdup?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First of all, we should be clear with our numbers. The numbers you're throwing around are not accurate. We detailed the investments we're making for the pandemic in the report presented to this committee. You're a very long way off in the scope of those numbers.

I think the frame that we need to make sure the Auditor General has the appropriate resources is an important one. She's been in her new role for a couple of weeks I think, and we will be working with her to make sure there is the appropriate level of funding for the needs of the Auditor General.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, your government is spending in total—not new spending—half a trillion dollars, and we're talking about $11 million.

I guess, Mr. Minister, the only reasonable conclusion one could reach about the refusal of your government to adequately resource the Office of the Auditor General is that your government is afraid of being accountable and having a fully resourced Auditor General shed light on mismanagement, including 20,000 unaccounted infrastructure projects, $5 billion in unaccounted infrastructure spending, and a $35-billion Infrastructure Bank that has completed precisely zero infrastructure projects.

Speaking of the failed Canada Infrastructure Bank, I will follow up with you on a question that I posed to the associate minister of finance when she last appeared before our committee. How much did the outgoing president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank receive in the way of bonuses?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Minister, that will be it.