Finance Committee on June 18th, 2020

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It is to Ms. Cobden from the Canadian Steel Producers Association.

Ms. Cobden, I know you mentioned dumping practices, and you were worried about that. My understanding is that one of our committees—I think the justice committee—was considering Bill C-17. There was a provision around dumping practices there. Was your association consulted, and if you were, what was the outcome?

[Catherine Cobden]

Yes, in fact, we were concerned with the original proposal that was related to the Special Imports Measures Act that was included in a recent bill from Justice. We worked with many members of Parliament, including our steel caucus and the chair of that caucus, and we were able to communicate our concerns.

Essentially, I think the implications were just not thought through in the sense that this was going to give a relief valve to imports and egregious imports. We did not want that, obviously, nor did anybody else. We're really happy that those provisions, which were the worst for us, were addressed. Obviously, the status of the bill is what it is, but the provisions themselves that would have really caused a significant problem to the Canadian steel producers were removed.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, thank you.

I believe we're going to Ms. Desbiens or Gabriel Ste-Marie.

Go ahead, Ms. Desbiens.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to my colleague Mr. Ste-Marie and to the witnesses for their expertise.

As the Bloc Québécois critic for arts and culture, I will essentially focus on that sphere of activity.

We applaud the fact that the CERB has been extended. As Ms. Prégent said, and, as all your speakers and representatives have said on many occasions during the consultations, it will clearly not be enough, simply because most of the economic activity for artists and workers in the creative industry takes place during the summer.

It is often during that period that things get really busy, so that you can put a little aside, in a little piggy bank, as they say, in preparation for the quieter periods that sometimes happen in the cultural sector in November or through the winter.

My question is for Ms. Prégent or Ms. St-Onge. In the next sessions of Parliament, we might be able to convince the government to create a special CERB or, even to see the extended CERB like an investment. My introduction will be a long one, but I will listen to you afterwards.

In 2017, we learned that the culture industry was contributing $53 billion to Canada's GDP. This is the Standing Committee on Finance, so it is very helpful to provide such significant numbers. It is a little more than agriculture, so it is quite astounding. It shocked me personally; I was surprised to see it. You could consider that extending the CERB is a way of investing in economic benefits in the future. With no culture, there will be a $53 billion hole in the country's budget for next year.

Ms. St-Onge and Ms. Prégent, what do you think of the possibility of seeing it as an investment?

[Sophie Prégent]

I will start, if I may.

Of course, that would be helpful for our sector.

I tend to say that we often talk about an anglophone culture and a francophone culture in Canada and in Quebec, but, honestly, culture as such does not exist. What exists are creators of culture. It essentially takes human beings before it can become a national identity.

Sometimes, I get a little annoyed and I say that we have to start stop talking about culture as if it was a jewel in our national crown, our Canada. Culture is by definition intrinsically about the artists and about people. We have to think globally, but, at a certain point, we really have to focus our thinking and ask ourselves who are the people that contribute to our culture. Who are those people?

Too often, we say that we have to improve the socio-economic conditions for the artists, but that is always part of our overall collective thinking. I would like us to take that down to the people with families and with children, those who never manage to earn their living in the sector. At the moment, my impression is that a lot of money is invested in culture, but much less that…

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It doesn't come back.

[Sophie Prégent]

Exactly. Much less that permeates all levels of the cultural sector, our organizations, those that subsidize us, for example. We just have to think that the most fertile ground is lower down.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What do you think about the danger of losing artistic expertise, as artists run into financial trouble and feel obliged to go elsewhere in order to feed their families? I feel that a lot is lost in that respect. What do you think?

[Sophie Prégent]

It is the worst thing that could happen.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Absolutely.

[Sophie Prégent]

It is the worst thing that could happen. It's already happening with music. Unfortunately, almost all musicians have a second job.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

And those jobs are often in the restaurant business, which is not operating either.

[Sophie Prégent]

Exactly. That is closed too. All the people with the creative power and talent are going to do something else. When that happens, we will certainly not be talking about identity and culture any more. There will no longer be one and we will find something else.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

There will no longer be one, and as we are at the Standing Committee on Finance, there will be no GDP either.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I wonder if Ms. St-Onge wants to add anything.

We're nearly out of time, but go ahead.

[Pascale St-Onge]

I will be very brief with this.

I would like to expand on the issue of economic impacts. The impacts that you mention are the direct impacts of the cultural industry. However, we must not underestimate the power of attraction of the creative industry in Canada on foreign investments and on the quality of life and the social cohesion.

What you were saying about the loss of expertise is what we are hearing on the ground. A number of our members, both in the cultural sector and in the media, are seriously thinking of changing their fields. That would be a dramatic loss for democracy, for the diversity of voices, for our country's creativity, and for innovation. In fact, the cultural sector is also a source of innovation that inspires all our other industries in Canada.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

The repercussions are also felt in the tourism industry in particular, which is a major retention factor—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Sorry, Ms. Desbiens, but we're out of time. We have to move on to Mr. Julian.

I believe Mr. Greg McLean has joined us. He'll follow Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all our witnesses, and we hope your families are safe and healthy.

I'm going to start with Mr. Lewis. I represent part of Hollywood North in Burnaby, British Columbia. It has more studio space than anywhere else in Canada, so IATSE is extremely important to our community.

I'm in constant touch with people from the sector. Jagmeet Singh is the neighbouring MP, and we fought very hard to make sure that the CERB was extended, but that's only a temporary solution.

You've outlined a number of things that should be the next steps. One of them is having access to UBI, a universal basic income, so that artists and folks in the film sector are not worried about whether or not next month everything will be cut off. You've also talked about a variety of supports that can be put into place.

How important is it that the government act now to make sure that our film industry and arts industry can thrive coming out of this pandemic?

[John Lewis]

I think it's crucially important.

Many years ago a prominent left-wing politician, Hugh Segal, talked at my university about a universal basic income. I think the time has come to relook at that.

I think it addresses issues for people working in the arts, because there's always this vulnerability, and I think that's what my colleagues from Quebec were just referencing too. It isn't just COVID; there's a constant vulnerability in earnings and how we undervalue and underappreciate people who work in culture and the arts.

If there's a silver lining, maybe this allows us to re-examine the notion of the value of people who work in the arts culture industry. The time is now, when we have great opportunities.

You can see in Burnaby the number of sound stages that are being built. That's not by accident, and what I'm hearing is that we need more. If there is a way that the federal government can partner with the industry to build more, that is what we need.

If there are ways that we can tweak the tax credit to bring even more work.... I think there's a role for provinces and the federal government in terms of this insurance issue, which is crucially important for domestic producers. They need that in order to start back up again. Without it, it's going to be a very precarious restart.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

My next questions go to Ms. Prégent.

Ms. Prégent, my family and I are fans of yours out here on the west coast of Canada. We have followed your career. Thank you very much for joining us.

I would like to ask you the same question about the CERB and the creation of a guaranteed minimum income for artists.

To what extent could that help our artists finally get out of this crisis, wherever they live in Canada?

[Sophie Prégent]

Actually, a system like that already exists. In Europe, for example, they have intermittent workers. I don't know exactly how it works. Whether it's called a guaranteed minimum income or something else, this pandemic is highlighting the precarious lives our artists and creators in the cultural sector are living, whether they are on the East Coast or the West Coast.

So, clearly, I feel that we have to turn our thoughts to a proposal that would be permanent. It's terrible, but it has taken a pandemic for us to think in the longer term. Let's be smart and sensitive and let's try to look into the future so that this crisis can serve some kind of useful purpose.

We could certainly study ways to do it, but at some point, we are going to have to recognize the reality of self-employed workers, who represent 60% of our society. They are in a second class of workers, who, at the moment, have no social safety net. Four out of 10 workers have one, while six out of 10 do not.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

My final question is for you, Mr. Sands.

You raised the issue of interchange fees. Other countries basically have put handcuffs on the banks' gouging of people. I know of many small businesses that are impacted by the high cost of access through interchange. How important is it that the government, given that they've provided about $750 billion in supports to the banks, actually require the banks not to gouge small businesses on interchange fees?

[Gary Sands]

We feel very strongly about it. I don't think there's an issue that's more important for all small and medium-sized businesses in Canada.

I do want to start off by saying that the government has brought about a new agreement, which was to go into place in April and has been delayed. That was definitely an improvement over the agreement that was in place with the previous government, but there's still much more to be done. The gap that exists between what the main street small businesses in this country pay and what a company such as Walmart pays is indefensible. It's inexcusable.

I want to go back to the grocery sector and have members understand the context of this. These independent grocers—I'm going to have to pick my sector, but I know that I'm speaking for all small and medium-sized businesses—are at margins of 1.5%. The new agreement that is supposed to come into effect is to provide an overall rate of 1.5%. That's an overall rate, and that's disingenuous, because the rates for premium cards actually drive that higher.

How do you make money? How does a small and medium-sized business in this country make any money when your margins are so tight? On the interchange fees, if Walmart can get 0.89%, why can't other small and medium-sized businesses in this country get the same? We've never had a clear, concise answer given. It's almost a deafening silence.

The amount of money we're talking about is billions of dollars, and I'm saying to this committee that we need to take another look at this, because in the post-COVID landscape there are going to be a lot of potholes on that road to recovery, and we don't need the credit card companies putting up any more roadblocks. That's what exists now. They have to be part of the solution. If they're not, they're part of the problem.