Evidence of meeting #10 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Benoît  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aéro Montréal
Bob Masterson  President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Keith Brooks  Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada
Vincent Miville  General Manager, Fédération des producteurs forestiers du Québec
Julia Levin  Climate and Energy Program Manager, Environmental Defence Canada
Ian Lee  Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yaovi Bouka  Executive-Vice-President and Treasurer, African Leadership Force
Pam Krause  President and Chief Executive Officer, Centre for Sexuality
Kim Moody  Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

7:35 p.m.

Programs Director, Environmental Defence Canada

Keith Brooks

We know that the government has committed to protecting 25% by 2025 and 30% by 2030. We're behind on that, and we need to do more on that.

I think a Canada water agency is a key tool that we should be using to do that. One main thing we think this agency should have is some money to dole out for projects, and getting provincial partners, indigenous partners, municipalities, communities and everybody involved in the work of protecting fresh water.

We have 20%—one-fifth—of the world's supply of surface fresh water in Canada, and we're not doing enough to protect it. The experience in the States with the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence restoration initiative was that President Trump did want to remove this funding program, but it was so popular with local communities, governors and citizenry that he couldn't do so. It gave a way for people to really get involved in the work of protecting fresh water.

I think a Canada water agency could do that, but they would need to have the resources to get those provincial, municipal, indigenous partners and everybody on board, and get into the work of actually protecting water.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I'm sorry, folks.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you.

7:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We're going to end it there.

We could go for another two hours with this extremely interesting panel.

Just for your information, Mr. Brooks, we have set up a subgroup on Great Lakes issues within the Canada-U.S. Inter-Parliamentary Group that's chaired by Vance Badawey on behalf of the Canada-U.S. IPG, and chaired on the U.S. side too.

With that, I want to thank all of the witnesses for their presentations and pushing for very quick times.

We will suspend and go to the next panel.

7:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 10, panel two, of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

We are operating under an order of reference from November 19. As you all know, we are doing pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2021 budget.

Today's meeting is taking place by a hybrid format. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Keep in mind, when you're not on, to mute your microphone. It makes it less disruptive for the committee as a whole.

Just to give a heads-up to the questioners on panel two, Mr. Falk will start and Mr. Sorbara will follow him. We're going to have to cut it back to a five-minute round to try to get everybody in.

First up will be Mr. Ian Lee, associate professor with the school of business at Carleton University.

Mr. Lee.

7:45 p.m.

Dr. Ian Lee Associate Professor, Sprott School of Business, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the finance committee concerning the most momentous budget to be delivered in modern times in Canada at the federal level.

Here are my three disclosures: First, I do not consult to anyone anywhere. Second, I do not belong to or donate to any political organization or party anywhere. Third, I am not here speaking to you tonight to seek funding or help for anything or anybody anywhere.

Over the next couple of months, I think an extraordinary number of people will appear before this committee, beseeching you for grants, loans, subsidies, stimuli and other forms of financial assistance, and many will claim very dire outcomes consequent to any denial of funding.

Over the last three years, through meticulous, extensive review of Canadian statistical data collected and published by Statistics Canada, CIHI, the Treasury Board main estimates, the Treasury Board Secretariat, public accounts, the Office of the Auditor General, PBO studies and similar government-sourced studies, I slowly developed a PowerPoint deck of graphs, charts and tables sourced exclusively from Government of Canada departmental publication sources. I called my presentation “Enduring Urban Legends of Canada”. I will not be presenting it now. I'm just going to run over some of the findings and summarize them very quickly.

We have been told many times—daily, weekly—that inequality is exploding in Canada, yet the recent OECD data shows that Canada is below the OECD average for inequality. Indeed, in a speech by the new Governor of the Bank of Canada in September 2020, the inequality graph was reproduced and specifically cited by the governor. In that same speech, the governor provided StatsCan data that showed that the share of top income earners peaked in 2006 and has declined since—not increased since, as we are told regularly. Indeed, Professor Stephen Gordon of Université Laval has published a number of op-eds in The Globe and Mail, National Post and Maclean’s showing that the middle class has not vanished or collapsed, but is thriving.

I reproduced, in my slide deck, graphs by the OECD from 2017, 2019 and 2020 that showed that Canada has improved over the past decade in reducing inequalities in well-being. Indeed, we are at the very top; we are in the top two, three or five countries out of the 34 wealthiest countries in the world, which is what the OECD is. The OECD data shows, in fact, that Canada is number two—which means in the world—for gains and well-being.

A second oft-repeated claim is that poverty is skyrocketing ever upward in Canada. In fact, Statistics Canada shows that poverty has declined from 25% in the 1960s—when I was a child growing up on a farm in eastern Ontario—to 15% below the poverty line in the mid-1990s to under 10% today. Indeed, ESDC—which, of course, is the Government of Canada—showed in its publication on poverty that the percentage of low-income Canadians has declined dramatically from 1976 to the present.

Moreover, contrary to repeated claims of increasing levels of elder poverty, elder poverty has collapsed since the mid-1960s with the introduction of OAS, CPP, GIS and public health care by the Lester Pearson government. Today, elder poverty is in the lower third of the OECD countries. It should be no surprise to parliamentarians because the Statistics Canada classification of functions of government by consolidated government component shows that the federal and provincial governments in Canada, in aggregate, spent $185 billion in 2018, and that was only on income support programs. In fact, immediately prior to COVID in January 2020, the two levels of government, federal and provincial, spent $200 billion on income support alone.

Stats Canada notes that almost two-thirds of the $750 billion spent by all levels of government in 2018 was directed towards “social protection, health care and education”, and spending on social protection grew at 5.4%—at the fastest pace—which is well above inflation. In other words, pre-COVID, in 2018, we were collectively spending almost half a trillion dollars on social health and education in a country with a less than $2-trillion GDP at that time. That's 25% of GDP.

My urban legends slides also address the claim that a large number of Canadians are deeply indebted and in a desperate financial position, individually on the edge of bankruptcy as we're told. It's claimed that we owe $2 trillion in debt. We do, but it's never disclosed that Canadians own $13 trillion personally for a net worth, per Stats Canada, of over $300,000 per person in 2020. No doubt I'll be accused of wanting to ignore the plight of the poor, but it is precisely the opposite. Large numbers of Canadians live very well indeed. The CRA income stats and the Stats Canada inequality index clearly show that Canada is an extraordinarily prosperous country for most of us. However, there are some Canadians who are left behind, and this fact calls for targeted surgical policies, programs, and spending to zero in like a laser beam to help those who do need help. I urge parliamentarians to avoid at all costs the demand from high-income privileged professionals for universal social programs, people like me, professors, public servants, and medical doctors, who are seeking to obtain free drugs and/or free day care to be paid for with scarce public resources when they need to be focused on our low-income people who need help.

Thank you.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Lee.

We turn now to the African Leadership Force.

Mr. Bouka, go ahead. The floor is yours.

7:50 p.m.

Yaovi Bouka Executive-Vice-President and Treasurer, African Leadership Force

Can you hear me?

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Yes.

7:50 p.m.

Executive-Vice-President and Treasurer, African Leadership Force

Yaovi Bouka

Ladies and gentlemen, members of the Standing Committee on Finance of the House of Commons of Canada, allow me, first, to thank you for this opportunity to appear before you on behalf of Force Leadership Africain as part of your pre-budget consultations for 2021. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Canadian government for the bold and appropriate measures it has taken to support Canadian populations, businesses and communities in the fight against the COVID-19 pandemic and to prepare the country for a robust economic recovery.

Force Leadership Africain, an organization that represents the African diaspora in Canada, was established in 2006. Some of its objectives are as follows: to establish in Canada an African consultation, representation and positive action group on political, economic, trade, cultural, scientific and social issues affecting Africa and Africans; to promote leadership and entrepreneurship within Canada's African communities; and to contribute to the operation of a mutually beneficial partnership between Canada and Africa.

For the purposes of the pre-budget consultations, our organization's main recommendations, which we have already forwarded to you by email, may be summarized as follows: that the government: grant funding to improve the health and welfare of seniors in cooperation with the Canadian provinces; ensure that seasonal farm workers arrive and live in Canada in safe and decent conditions; fight systemic anti-black and anti-indigenous racism; end police brutality against indigenous and black people; create a Canada investment fund for Africa with $1 billion in capital to improve capital availability and finance business and investment projects in Africa, including in the key areas of infrastructure and digital technology; fund African diaspora organizations that aim to promote Canada-Africa business relations; and encourage banks and financial institutions to extend their interest rate reductions on loans and credit cards through the end of 2021.

We therefore welcome the new federal programs designed to combat discrimination, especially the black entrepreneurship program implemented by the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade, Mary Ng. These programs were presented to us at a virtual conference hosted by MP Mr. Emmanuel Dubourg on Friday, December 4. Minister Ng's parliamentary secretary, Ms. Rachel Bendayan, was also in attendance. These programs are actually pointing in the right direction.

As regards Africa more specifically, the Canadian government has clearly expressed its commitment to further strengthening its economic and trade ties with our continent. In the context of this new dynamic, it has also stated that it wants to see the members of the African diaspora get more involved in the development of this new Canada-Africa partnership.

In actual fact, given the new constraints imposed by COVID-19, the cooperation paradigm between Canada and Africa will have to be redefined to respond more effectively to the aspirations of both parties. The Canadian side feels that markets must be diversified and investment risks reduced, while Africans believe new forms of project funding are necessary. Economic activities must also be diversified and the diaspora's involvement in the economy increased.

The COVID-19 pandemic is a threat to global health and the global economy. Considering the enormous gap between the resources that the rich countries have deployed—more than $12 billion—and the near anemic means of the less advanced countries, OECD secretary general Angel Gurria has urgently appealed to the rich countries to triple, and even quadruple, government development assistance to enable the emerging countries to participate effectively in the fight against the pandemic.

Accordingly, we recommend that the Canadian government implement two additional measures: first, introduce a special program to support the recovery of African countries, more particularly to assist them in establishing their own sovereign funds and in supporting the recovery of their SMEs, which constitute 90% of African businesses; and, second, establish, in cooperation with the private sector and multilateral agencies, an investment fund for Africa to spearhead the new Canada-Africa partnership.

These proposed measures are admittedly…

8 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Bouka, I hate to interrupt, but I'll have to get you to wrap it up pretty quickly. We're trying to hold people to five minutes and we're at seven.

8 p.m.

Executive-Vice-President and Treasurer, African Leadership Force

Yaovi Bouka

Yes, I'm almost done.

These measures are admittedly measures of generosity, but they are also based on economic considerations. As the administrator of the UN development programme, the UNDP, has said, the pandemic has propelled us into a new global collaboration between the public and private sectors that will enable all of us truly to achieve our technology, economic and sustainable development objectives.

8 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, and for the brief that you presented earlier.

We'll turn now to Pam Krause with the Centre for Sexuality.

Ms. Krause.

8 p.m.

Pam Krause President and Chief Executive Officer, Centre for Sexuality

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Pam Krause, and I am the president and CEO of the Centre for Sexuality. I am also a proud member of the Calgary LGBTQ community. I've worked and volunteered as an advocate on equality and social justice in the local non-profit community for 20 years. Thank you for inviting me to participate in this important consultation.

The Centre for Sexuality is a nationally recognized prevention-focused organization that delivers evidence-based programs and services to normalize sexuality and improve sexual health. We've been leading the way in the areas of sexuality, healthy relationships, human rights and consent for 48 years in Calgary. We serve over 40,000 people in Alberta annually thanks to our many partnerships with schools, community groups, health agencies and corporate partners.

The COVID-19 pandemic has caused an extraordinary disruption to the social fabric of our country. It has exacerbated existing crises and stretched limited resources beyond their breaking points. Urgent action is needed to protect those Canadians who are most vulnerable because of this pandemic.

Every six days a woman in Canada is killed by a current or former intimate partner. Domestic abuse rates in Alberta are at a 10-year peak. Study after study demonstrates that during times of economic stress and high social anxiety, gender-based violence rates skyrocket. The United Nations has called this the “shadow pandemic”.

Before the pandemic started, our support resources were already stretched. Last year, the Calgary police responded to almost 25,000 calls related to domestic violence. Over 23,000 Alberta women, children and seniors requesting admission to shelters were turned away in the last two years. Women's Shelters Canada released a report showing that 60% of shelters across Canada have reported significant increases in calls and requests since March. The Association of Alberta Sexual Assault Services reported a 57% increase in people reaching out for help since the beginning of the pandemic.

This comes with a real-world cost. A Justice Canada study estimates the economic cost of domestic violence in Canada to be as much as $7.4 billion per year.

The Government of Canada should make new investments to ensure that we are rebuilding a society that treats people humanely and equitably. There are proven programs, including our own WiseGuyz program, which can be scaled up to advance this goal, but we're in desperate need of additional resources.

Canada's gender-based violence strategy will enter its second-to-last fiscal year in 2021. We ask you to recommend that the government renew this program now, with new funding and increased focus on prevention.

As we emerge from this pandemic and lockdowns are lifted, we can expect normal behaviours to return to daily life. Many psychological experts anticipate an increase in, or at minimum normal, sexual activity levels post-lockdown.

Before COVID-19, Canada was already facing an epidemic of sexually transmitted and blood-borne infections—STBBIs. Chlamydia and gonorrhea infection rates have been increasing across Canada. Alberta is in the midst of a syphilis outbreak, with infection rates at a 70-year high. As Canadians re-engage in normal pre-lockdown sexual practices, there is a significant risk that these already high infections rates will spike further.

The risks are even more dangerous given that much of Canada's public health infrastructure has been under immense strain. Many sexual health information centres are operating on reduced hours, and testing clinics have shifted focus to COVID. Researchers from the British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS recently projected that a 50% disruption to HIV services due to COVID could lead to a 9% increase in new infection rates.

There is an economic case for investing in STBBI prevention, as one study estimates the economic loss attributed to those infected with HIV to be $4 billion, or $1.3 million per person infected.

Sexually transmitted infections and blood-borne infections disproportionately affect marginalized communities, which creates a vicious cycle when combined with other barriers, like stigma, racism and poverty, that mitigate access to sexual health care.

The Public Health Agency of Canada provides $26.4 million annually to community health organizations in Canada through the HIV and hepatitis C community action fund.

To combat this looming sexual health crisis, we ask you to recommend an increase of $50 million annually to address the growing STBBI rates across Canada.

The COVID-19 pandemic has been devastating. I urge all of you to recommend new investments to ensure that we emerge from this pandemic as a more just and inclusive society.

Thank you very much. I would be happy to answer any of your questions.

8:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Ms. Krause, and for the brief that you submitted earlier in the year.

We are turning to Kim Moody of Moody's Tax Law.

Go ahead, Mr. Moody.

December 7th, 2020 / 8:05 p.m.

Kim Moody Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, committee members.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the 2021 federal budget priorities. My name is Kim Moody. I'm a chartered professional accountant and the CEO and director of Canadian Tax Advisory services for Moody's Tax Law and Moody's Private Client.

I have a long history of serving the Canadian tax professionals in a variety of leadership positions, including chair of the Canadian Tax Foundation, co-chair of the joint committee on taxation of the Canadian Bar Association and CPA Canada and chair of the Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners for Canada to name a few.

Given the limited time we have tonight, I'm going to keep my opening remarks shorter than usual.

March 19, 2019, does that date mean anything to anyone? Well, it should. That was 629 days ago, and that was the last time the federal government released a budget. We are quickly approaching the Canadian record for that kind of delay of 651 days.

As former parliamentary budget officer, Kevin Page, said in October this year that “are fiscal plans. And to say that, 'because there's too much uncertainty, we're going to manage without a plan', is kind of bizarre.... The reason we have plans is because there is uncertainty.” I absolutely agree.

In this day and age of uncertainty, a fiscal budget and plan is needed, and the recent November 30, 2020, fall economic statement is not that plan.

As esteemed economist, Dr. Jack Mintz, who recently appeared before your committee, stated in the National Post on December 3, 2020, “I was hoping our new minister of finance, once a fine journalist, might produce a fall fiscal statement written clearly and to the point. Instead, we are treated to 237 pages of repetitive back-slapping and cliché-laden phrases that few will bother to read.”

I agree. As Kevin Page stated in a CBC news article on December 6, yesterday, after the release of the fall economic statement, “We don't really have a good view—almost no view—of the government spending today. We have estimates of what the government thinks it will spend for 2020, 2021, but those are not the actual monies that are going out the door”.

Accordingly, it is critical for our country's fiscal future to develop a well- thought-out budget and to do it quickly and thoughtfully. Pre-budget consultations are famous for organizations and individuals who provide their views on how the Government of Canada should spend and/or raise their money. There's no shortage of funding requests, and today is no different.

With the above in mind, I believe there are two key broad objectives that the government should set their focus on. Number one is targeted short-term spending to continue to assist business owners, job creators, so they can continue to employ Canadians. Jobs, jobs, jobs should be of primary importance in the short-term. Number two is to engage in comprehensive tax review and reform.

With respect to the jobs priority, it's important to remember that government does not create jobs or wealth. That distinction is left mainly to the private sector; however, government can certainly provide a fertile garden to encourage job growth. How can it do that in the short-term? The continuation of the wage subsidy and rental subsidy will certainly help, but non-budgetary matters, pre-approved resource projects and accelerating permitting time for construction projects would greatly assist the acceleration of employment.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, but there's a member whose microphone is on, and I'm just wondering if we could mute him. I'm sorry to interrupt.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

That's not a problem.

We'll not take time from you, Kim.

If anybody's listening there, shut off your mike. I can't tell which one is on.

Go ahead, Mr. Moody.

8:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Kim Moody

The continuation of the wage subsidy and rental subsidy will certainly help, but non-budgetary matters, such as quickly approving resource projects and accelerating permitting time for construction projects would greatly assist the acceleration of employment.

From the perspective of my home province of Alberta, it's my belief that Bills C-48 and C-69 should be repealed, which would go a long way to restoring foreign investor confidence back in our oil and gas sector.

Finally, as many presenters have told you in the past, this country needs comprehensive tax review and reform. Yes, I know, many of you are tired of hearing this. Your committee has recommended this very thing and so has the Senate. Perhaps there is something to all the smart people that have appeared before you. Perhaps certain academics, bureaucrats and parliamentarians who think that comprehensive tax review is not necessary or that Canadians are not ready for such a review are simply wrong. Just maybe....

In my view, Canadians are ready, ready for real and refreshing change for the better, ready for positive change to assist our taxing statutes to get ready for the next generation. Forget the cries for patchwork quilt fixes. In addition, ignore the calls by some who want significant change, such as the addition of a wealth tax, without comprehensive review and reform.

Any big changes should only be made after a well-represented panel of tax experts, economists, academics, public policy experts and other stakeholders conduct a thorough and well-represented review of our current system and recommend a new system for our future, a bigger and better future.

Thank you. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

8:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Moody. Yes, we certainly did recommend that there be a comprehensive tax review.

We will switch back to five minutes instead of six to try to get everybody through.

Mr. Falk, you have five minutes.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the panellists who presented a brief and a little synopsis of what your concerns are.

Mr. Moody, I would like to begin with you. You have criticized the CERB, and I think rightly so, for being in direct competition with the private sector.

Are there any of these other COVID subsidy programs that you think need to be fixed or that could be made more effective?

8:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

Kim Moody

That's a great question.

Yes, I did criticize the CERB. I'm on record for stating that.

In a perfect world, I would love to see the wage subsidy and the rental subsidy simplified, but I do sympathize with the Department of Finance in how they wanted to target it. There's a reason why there hasn't been as much pickup in the wage subsidy. In my humble opinion, it's because it's so complicated that people are scared to use it. I think that's the short answer to your question.

With respect to some of the others, I would like to see a slowdown of some of them. It's too late now, but, for example, there was the one-time payment for seniors earlier this year. I still shake my head at that. Some of the excessive spending seems to not be as targeted as it could have been.

Hopefully, that answers your question.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

Yes. Thank you.

You mentioned tax reform a couple of times.

8:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Director, Canadian Tax Advisory, Moodys Tax Law LLP

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

We know that there is a big gap that has been created with all the stimulus money, and that's at some point going to have to be addressed. What measures in tax reform do you think could address that in an equitable way?