Finance Committee on March 17th, 2021

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

Before I turn to the witnesses, there was, in the previous panel, if colleagues will recall, a point raised about rapid tests, I believe by Mr. Kelly. It could have been Ms. Jansen. I'm not sure. I think it's an important question to raise, but I think the record should reflect the actual situation.

Colleagues can find this online. It's available on the Government of Canada website. The federal government has helped to facilitate the shipment of 31.2 million rapid tests from four different companies. Unfortunately, the deployment is where the challenge is. Of those 31.2 million tests that have been shipped to provinces for distribution, we've seen only 5.8 million distributed to communities and to local health agencies specifically.

I don't think this is an opportunity, and I wouldn't want to point fingers. I don't think that's appropriate. Provinces have a very difficult time right now. Health care is their area of jurisdiction. However, if there's a concern about rapid tests being distributed to communities, let's face facts and recognize what the actual situation is, with a view to improving it.

My first question will be for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

There are things in the fall economic statement that are expressed now in Bill C-14. This is what we'll see go forward as the vision of the economic statement. There are certainly things in there, Mr. Wudrick, that focus on COVID-19, but also on other priorities that are central to the challenges of our day, such as climate change.

If you look at it—and I hope you've had a chance to read the bill—there's money to help homeowners make energy-efficiency improvements to their homes. There's funding for charging and refuelling stations. These are things that my constituents have certainly called for. It's great to see those put into place.

Do you have a challenge with this sort of approach? Climate change is, I believe, the central challenge of our time. Wouldn't you agree?

[Aaron Wudrick]

It's certainly one of the biggest challenges of our time. I don't dispute the reality of climate change. I don't have strong views on most of the rest of that bill. The main focus we have, the main concern we have, is with the debt ceiling.

I would note that there is an easier way to get these measures passed: produce a federal budget. We would welcome seeing a robust federal budget, and then we could debate the validity of the policies contained in it.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

A budget is going to be presented, Mr. Wudrick.

[Aaron Wudrick]

That's great.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Does that mean, then, that the view of the Taxpayers Federation has changed?

I'm quoting one of your directors, Kevin Gaudet, who said on behalf of the federation, speaking for the group, that “We don't believe there's such thing as man-made climate change”, adding that initiatives such as cap and trade are in no way proved to reduce CO2 emissions.

Does that mean the organization now believes that climate change is a human-made phenomenon, predominantly?

[Aaron Wudrick]

Yes. Yes.

Well, you say that he's speaking “on behalf of” the CTF, we don't actually have a corporate view on those issues. We're not an environmental organization. I personally—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm running out of time. I think any organization worth its salt, even those that are focused on the economy, and especially those focused on the economy, will recognize, Mr. Wudrick—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Peter, we'll have to allow Mr. Wudrick to respond. Go ahead, Mr. Wudrick.

[Aaron Wudrick]

I absolutely agree that man-made climate change is real and it is a serious concern.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay. Well, that's good to know, but it's interesting that one of your directors is of a different point of view. I don't mean to—

[Aaron Wudrick]

That was 12 years ago, so with respect—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's good to see that things have evolved.

[Aaron Wudrick]

Certainly.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's not an attack here, but I take issue—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fast, what's your point of order?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Relevance: we're not talking about climate change. We're talking about Bill C-14. Then—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

That's not a point of order. In fact, in Bill C-14 there are some things that relate to climate change.

Go ahead, Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That's true, but why am I not surprised that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Let's go to the question, Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

—Conservative colleagues haven't read the part of the bill that focuses on climate change, while we've had—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

No, no, no. Don't accuse anybody of anything. Let's go to the question.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This is to Mr. Cochrane, because I'm wrapping up on time here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You are.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I take your points, but at the same time, are you making the argument that government can spend endlessly?

I do agree that the programs were put in place by the government were in an emergency situation and were needed to respond to a crisis. They were expensive, but they were absolutely necessary and they keep the country going. Still, there should be fiscal responsibility as an overall guiding approach. Isn't that the case?