Finance Committee on April 1st, 2021

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to acknowledge all the witnesses and thank them for their presentations.

I would like to ask a question of Mr. Paquet or Mr. Ryan.

You are asking for more predictability with respect to wage subsidy and rental assistance programs. For example, you would like to see an announcement now, in the upcoming budget, that these programs will be extended through 2022.

What difference does it make to your members to know up front that these programs will be being extended through 2022, rather than learning about their extension month by month or quarterly through 2022?

[Éric Paquet]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

I'll start off, and then I'll let my colleague Mr. Ryan complete my response.

Actually, we are asking for more predictability in terms of the Canada Emergency Rent Subsidy, but also the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. Right now, as my colleague Ms. Demarcke just mentioned, there is operational uncertainty in terms of the spread of the virus and the sanitation guidelines that will need to be implemented. Entrepreneurs are used to planning the purchase and sale of their products and the hiring of the employees they need to operate. Right now, they are not able to do this, because programs are extended from month to month or a few weeks at a time.

So we are asking you to extend the programs as long as necessary. Given that they are already regressive and based on loss of revenue from 2019 and so forth, there is not much risk. We asked that they be extended to 2022, because the next budget goes to 2022, but they should be extended as long as necessary to help contractors maintain the employment relationship with their current employees and plan for needed hires.

I will let Mr. Ryan complete my response.

[Jean-Michel Ryan, Chairman of the Board, Alliance de l'industrie touristique du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Paquet.

As entrepreneurs, we need predictability. It allows us to plan for the next three to six months when we are doing our operating budget and we have to decide what our steps are and how many people we are going to keep employed, which is the key personnel that are critical to the future of our business.

If we are not able to know if we will have help in six months if the pandemic continues—we know the third wave is underway—we cannot know if we can invest funds or how many employees we will keep employed. That creates a lot of insecurity within companies, and the people we don't keep because of uncertainty will go to other economic sectors, as Mr. Paquet mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, which exacerbates the labour shortage. So predictability is very important.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I see; thank you.

So we're talking about predictability and an extension of programs until 2022, or as long as the crisis continues for your members. You are sending a clear signal about predictability.

You talked about the labour shortage. A lot of your employees have gone to other industries. Is there a solution or a way to bring them back so you don't lose that expertise?

Has the implementation of the Canada Emergency Response Benefit had any negative effects that may have contributed to this workforce decline?

[Jean-Michel Ryan]

Let me answer that question, Mr. Paquet.

[Éric Paquet]

Yes, go ahead. As a contractor, Mr. Ryan, I think you're in a good position to answer it.

[Jean-Michel Ryan]

Yes, quite.

I am also the president of a major ski resort in Quebec. This winter, we ran into a labour shortage. We had 30 to 50 fewer people to help us operate normally. We obviously believe that the labour shortage is a result of the pandemic. People don't necessarily want to work with the public, and in some cases that's perfectly legitimate. There is education to be done on that side.

On the other hand, we really believe that the CERB, which is the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, has made it more likely that people will stay at home rather than go into the workforce. So it has exacerbated the problem of labour shortages. For us, revisiting this is an extremely important issue, as it will also hurt the upcoming summer tourism industry recovery and, therefore, next winter's recovery.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

So we're going to keep that in mind as we move forward with the CRB, the Canada Recovery Benefit, which is the continuation of the CERB.

Mr. Paquet, did you want to respond to that as well?

[Éric Paquet]

Yes. I just want to point out that this predictability is a foundation; it is fundamental to maintaining employment relationships and recruiting people who would like to work in tourism. With what just happened this year, enrolment in tourism training schools is down 40%. That's bad, it's very critical when it comes to ensuring succession. So this predictability is going to help us find the right programs and, also, ways to promote employment in tourism.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Ryan, we saw each other a few weeks ago to discuss the ski centres. At your centre, is the season over? Is there anything new with respect to your testimony before this committee?

[Jean-Michel Ryan]

Indeed, we saw each other two weeks ago.

The season is not over yet. It normally ends at Easter or the following week at most ski resorts in Quebec.

We are facing the same issues, the ones we talked about, which echo Ms. Demarcke's comments in response to Mr. McLeod's questions. We really need that support. We're still talking about predictability, which is an extremely important key word to understand with respect to tourism businesses. We are entering a third wave. We've struggled before. Most of us had to close, as everyone knows, in March 2020. Some were able to reopen. Others have reopened and closed their doors. We are starting this cycle again with the new wave. We are reopening and closing facilities, major tourist attractions, both in Quebec and in Canada.

Having served on various boards both nationally and provincially, I can tell you that these supports and programs that have been put in place have really been beneficial to the Canadian and Quebec tourism industries.

To answer Mr. McLeod, I would say that the issue...

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay—

[Jean-Michel Ryan]

Please let me finish.

The issue is also to be able to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead.

[Jean-Michel Ryan]

—ensure recovery. So we need funds dedicated to the marketing of the Canadian and Quebec tourism sector to ensure its recovery, because we will face major international players.

We also need levers to be able to quickly reinvest in the national and Quebec tourism product, and be able to compete with international offerings. By supporting investments focused on new products or product upgrades, we will also support indirect jobs, not only in the tourism industry, but also in the various other provincial and Canadian industrial spheres. That's the point I wanted to make.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We will have to end it there.

We'll turn it over to Mr. Johns, followed by Mr. Poilievre.

You have six minutes, Gord.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your hard work. I really appreciate seeing so many of you here trying to fight for workers and for those small businesses. It's something that New Democrats have been focused on since the beginning of the pandemic and that we're also going to focus on today.

Mr. Ladner and Ms. Benham, I really appreciated your testimony. You talked about the inflexibility of the programs the government has rolled out. Many people have been left out. We know that start-ups still have been left out, and some of them are in their third wave. They haven't gotten any help whatsoever. They're going out of business. Campgrounds, for example, can't get a lot of the programs because of the seasonality. The rent program was obviously flawed in design. We kicked and screamed to get them to fix it. Finally they fixed it, but they still won't backdate it to April 1. Those people are carrying debt and have been left out.

Can you talk about what needs to happen in terms of fixing these broken, flawed programs, and how this is impacting small businesses in every riding in this country?

[Kevin Ladner]

Just as a little background, our firm has over 100 offices across Canada, from St. John's to Vancouver Island. We've really seen the impact in the last year on small and medium-sized businesses right across the country. Quite frankly, I've been in this business for about 35 years. The last time there was anything similar to this, and it was before I was really in practice, was in the early 1980s, when prime was 21%.

At the end of the day, this is a once-in-a-generation, once-in-a-century situation. The programs that have been put in place have been a lifeline to our businesses. We all know that small businesses are the drivers of the economy.

We came here today to talk about what we saw as inflexibility in the programs. Really, what we see there is that it was pulled together very quickly and with speed. Parliament did a wonderful job, and I think the inflexibility is just the law of unintended consequences. Government officials are doing a wonderful job supporting small and medium-sized businesses, but there's always more you can do. We would just really encourage all the levels of government to help.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that, but our phones are ringing off the hook from people who can't get through these programs because of the inflexibility and because of the flawed design on some of the programs. It's overwhelming, and people are losing their livelihoods, so there's that.

As an accounting firm, you can see the CEBA loan. It's due at the end of next year. Do you think that's reasonable and that people are going to pay back this large amount of money, suffering the losses they've incurred, by the end of next year? These are small enterprises, most of them. Usually it would take three to five years to pay back a loan like this.

[Kevin Ladner]

There's no question.... We're not here today to get into policies. We wanted to talk about queues and the CERS program. The more flexibility and support the government can give small and medium-sized businesses.... That's really important right now.

Tara, I don't know if there's anything you would like to add.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think that's good, actually.

I'm going to go to Ms. Demarcke.

Ms. Demarcke, in the Northwest Territories and on Vancouver Island—where I was talking to Don Travers and Kati Martini, who own a whale-watching company—they're saying if the wage subsidy and the rent program aren't extended through the summer, it's going to impact and wipe out a lot of businesses that rely on international travel.

We know international travel is not going to bounce back this summer. Can you talk about how this is going to impact visitors in the Northwest Territories? You rely heavily on international travel and having that certainty over the summer.

[Donna Lee Demarcke]

Our border is closed, and we're looking at the border not even being open until potentially the fall, if then. Without the supports, our businesses will not remain. Literally, without the supports, we won't have the businesses around once the travel comes back around.

Regardless of what's going on in the rest of the country, we know for sure we're not going to be having visitors here till at least the fall time, so we have another season.... This is the second season for some of our operators, and for some who operate in summer and winter, this is their third season with no income. Without those supports in place, they will literally close their doors.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

For my last question, then, you talked about Destination Canada. I think about how important it is, and then also ITAC, the Indigenous Tourism Association of Canada, where they just learned they're getting an 83% cut on their core funding. They've been told to wait and to look at the budget.

I got a note from Keith Henry. Not only is he worried about when the budget's going to be released, but they're trying to hold the industry together with duct tape at this point. People are leaving because there's no certainty in their jobs at that organization.

Can you talk about how important that organization is, and also if you think it would be irresponsible to have an election in the middle of all this uncertainty?