Finance Committee on May 18th, 2021

[Andrea Hannen]

Yes. I think that experience actually is echoed in a number of jurisdictions across the country. We did a research study on that a number of years ago. In areas where there has been the most intervention into the child care market, such as provinces that have tried to eliminate anything but a public sector and not-for-profit sector system, that's where access to licensed child care tends to be lowest. They just don't create the number of licensed spaces needed.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Right. I was talking to a provider here, and he was mentioning that there's a particular chain that has actually, due to this pilot project and the new rules that the NDP has put forward in order to achieve the $10-a-day day care...that there are 18 facilities that that chain has now shelved their plans to open. He himself was planning on two, but now he's rethinking the second one. He's kind of at a point where he can still decide not to do that. He was just saying that there are so many things that are different. Like, there's no one-size-fits-all program. For instance, in our area you need 40 square feet per child, but in other areas you need 30 square feet per child. It's also like the teacher-child ratio.

This one-size-fits-all program that they seem to want to put forward just doesn't work. You will lose many spaces and, as you mentioned, the choice for parents to go with the day care or the child care of their choosing.

[Andrea Hannen]

Yes. I think that's exactly right. When we lost, here in Ontario, all of the independent licensed child care centres, 1,200 of them, during the rollout of the full-day kindergarten program, originally those licensed child care centres.... They mostly also provided full-day kindergarten. Among those licensed child care centres, there were about 20 different recognized, reputable and high-quality teaching and learning methodologies used. This would include things like Montessori, Reggio Emilia and a few different curriculums like that.

When those centres closed in favour of this full-day kindergarten program, we lost all of that diversity of programming as well. There was a sameness and kind of a lowest-common-denominator approach taken to the whole sector as opposed to giving parents choices. That's a really key element of parental choice. You tend not to have parental choice when the focus is on creating these big, monolithic institutions to deliver care.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Absolutely.

Now I'm going to shift over to Ms. Clemence.

When I heard the Prime Minister talk about a one-dose summer, my heart broke because I recognized the tourism industry was absolutely hooped by that sort of talking point. I wonder if you could talk a little more about the challenges. I know the Tourism Industry Association of Canada has been saying over and over again that these supports they've been getting shouldn't stop until the government stops telling people to stay home.

I wonder if you could talk about that.

[Corryn Clemence]

Certainly. Thank you for the opportunity.

I think it's a unique challenge in each of our provinces. Obviously, Atlantic Canada has handled the COVID restrictions differently than other jurisdictions with our Atlantic bubble last summer. We're looking again at an Atlantic bubble. We were really optimistic that the vaccine rollout would provide some benchmarks and a roadmap to return to travel and visitation.

With the vaccine rollouts as they are now, the one dose versus two and the varying restrictions in different jurisdictions, it's very challenging. One of the things we've had conversations on with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada and governments is trying to find ways to clarify those restrictions. Even as we start to see some jurisdictions open up, ease those border restrictions and increase capacities, to be able to move freely, have consumer and visitor confidence, and have people understand what the restrictions are in each jurisdiction is really important.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I think Mr. Jelley mentioned the fact that when you look down south, you can see that we could have been open this summer had we had a timely vaccine rollout and had our procurement had gone well. Basically, this government lost your summer.

Mr. Jelley.

[Matthew Jelley]

I certainly can't comment on that specifically, but I can say that with what we know now, we do not see meaningful improvement in tourism results over the next few months. Our need for assistance remains.

From my point of view, and as a business owner just trying to welcome people into his business and get back open, I have nothing to gain by trying to apportion blame. I want to find a solution. The one bit of certainty I have in my business right now is that even if nobody comes, I get assistance with my wages to help support my staff and support my team.

That's what I'm asking to be continued today. That's where our business is very much focused.

[Tamara Jansen, Conservative, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

I really appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Sorry, Ms. Jansen, you're over time.

We're going on to Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to everybody who made presentations. It's a very interesting discussion.

My first question is to the Ontario Real Estate Association and Brian Santos.

I found the presentation very interesting. The comment about encouraging housing repair and energy efficiency being part of that is something we're really focused on here in the Northwest Territories. We see it as an easy way to create employment. A lot of people could use the upgrades on their houses and even build new ones. I really support that.

The one comment that caught my attention was the issue of Internet availability. I've sat on a number of studies that took place in the north because the issue of isolation is a big factor for our youth. I had opportunity to travel around and talk to youth about their mental health and depression. Internet availability was pointed to as an area that was really impacting them. It also had an impact on distance learning and education. It really resulted on a lot of out-migration from our smaller communities to larger centres.

Mr. Santos, you said that it also has an impact on the housing market and on the decision people make when they want to buy a house. How much of a factor is it in the the decision to buy a house in areas with low Internet availability? That really impacts me in the north. We still don't have high-speed Internet in some of our communities.

[Brian Santos]

Thank you so much for your time and for the question.

I think it's huge. I see that as a practising realtor. I also sell real estate in southwestern Ontario, and many of my clients won't consider a property or a home if it doesn't have suitable Internet, because that's what connects them both to work and to everywhere else.

Without good Internet, it just doesn't become an option for people. Right now people are looking to continue that dream of home ownership. Having the opportunity to have Internet in all places, equitable Internet, would give people more choice and more opportunity to buy homes in different places and not just in the bigger cities.

It is very important, especially now as people are trying to find a place they can afford. Having Internet is essential and crucial.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that.

My next question is for the Tourism Association of P.E.I. I listened with interest to how much the CEWS and CERS have supported your industry. It's the same in the north. The backbone of our economy is mining, but tourism was a growing industry, and we had companies and operators popping up. Every year we were seeing more and more of them. Now that a number of them have reduced their operations, it's really hurting the rest of the population. The closure of a tourism business really has a spin-off effect in the hospitality sector, for sure, but it does in other areas, too.

In the north we've been trying to look at doing things differently. Most of the people in the north have had their second vaccine, so there are a number of exemptions that are being made for ecotourism for people who are operating in very remote areas. Sport hunters and ecotourist operators are allowed to bring in people. It seems to be helping a good percentage of our operators, but it still doesn't help everybody.

Yukon, for example, has now lifted a restriction so that anybody coming to Yukon who has had both their vaccines doesn't have to self-isolate; they can travel back and forth, and that means a lot more travel within the territories.

If people with both vaccine shots were able to travel freely within our country, within Canada, how much would that help your industry when it comes to enough businesses staying afloat?

[Corryn Clemence]

In terms of Prince Edward Island, to put that into context, in 2019 we would have welcomed approximately 1.6 million visitors, so on an island with a population of just under 160,000 people, you can appreciate the impact that tourism has for us.

While we say that 60% of our overall visitation comes from Atlantic Canada, the reality is that those are day trips or weekend trips, and they're not bringing in the economic impact that our visitors from Ontario, Quebec and even the New England states would bring. Those would be our biggest drivers, and we have a lot of visitors from Ontario and Quebec still booking right now, and I think there's optimism and a desire to travel; we know that's there.

If people with both doses of vaccine were able to move around with no self-isolation requirements, I think that would be a game-changer for a lot of our operators this year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, thank you, all.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I have one question, and Mr. Fast and Mr. Fragiskatos, if you have a single question you want to ask, we'll go that way.

My question really relates to what Mr. Jelley said earlier. He said that we needed to strengthen and retarget the wage subsidy.

What about timing, Matthew? It can be changed by regulation. It's in the budget bill, I know, but it can be changed by regulation. What about the timing? I think timing is fairly critical in your industry as we're getting near to June.

[Matthew Jelley]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Timing is critical. We're one month after the budget, and we don't really know much more about the hiring credit. When I'm doing my calculations, I have to take the most favourable view of how it may work.

With regard to the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy, for businesses like mine that are trying to ramp up.... You know, we've committed to opening our business, at least all of the maintenance expense and that lead-up. We couldn't wait any longer. We had to do that part. However, whether we bring on our next wave of staff.... We're in a holding pattern right now. That means that every business around us is in a holding pattern, and many are struggling to make decisions right now. Therefore, it's critical that we come out and even give some guidance—whether it's for smaller, under 1,000, or for privately held or whatever the distinctions are—that we're going to make some adjustments to Bill C-30, that we're going to make some adjustment to the regulations, and that we're going to be there.

Last year, adjustments came midsummer and in the fall and, in some cases, after periods had already started, and do you know what? Last year, we were all figuring it out. We were opening on a hope and a prayer. However, now we have the hard financials from last year. We know that without this assistance there's no feasible way for us to open, so the sooner we know, the better it is for everybody—the better it is for our employees, the better it is for our communities.

Therefore, I would certainly urge that we get to that discussion of how we can strengthen it, how we can keep it intact, not how we can make it disappear when we're still in a third wave and when we're still below two-dose vaccinations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Mr. Fast, you have time for a single question.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes. I'll direct it to Ms. Clemence because Mr. Jelley has been doing a lot of the answering.

There have been persistent calls for the government to now pivot to targeted, sector-specific support for the most heavily impacted sectors of tourism and hospitality, and Mr. Jelley signalled that in his testimony earlier.

Could you tell this committee what targeted, sector-specific support for your sector should look like? Obviously, the enhanced CEWS program is part of that, but are there other elements that you would welcome?

[Corryn Clemence]

I think Matthew has articulated, certainly, the hardest-hit sectors as being attractions. We see it with our experience providers and accommodation providers. I'm not an expert on what those formulas might look like, but when you start to look at the percentages of the hardest hit, I think that's a true indicator of where we see those deficiencies in the support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Fragiskatos, you can ask the last question, and then we'll have to close this panel.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I want to ask Mr. Santos, who's in Waterloo, a question.

I'm just down the road, Mr. Santos, in London.

As you might know, we have seen a very dramatic increase in the average cost of homes here since 2015. I've told this committee before that, on average, in the past five and a half years since that time, in this city here, there has been a 150% increase in the cost of homes. I think the same phenomenon has been experienced in your community roughly and in southern Ontario in general terms.

What is the position of your organization on what is driving that, and what does this mean for middle-income families? When we think about the middle class, home ownership is part and parcel of the conception of what a strong middle-class family can expect or should be able to expect; however, increasingly, I'm finding that middle-income families are being priced out of the market.

[Brian Santos]

You're absolutely right, but what remains undefeated is supply and demand. Supply remains very, very low, and demand is a lot higher.

There are two reasons for it. One is financial. People have more money in their pockets in the last year because they're not spending as much on discretionary spending. There are low interest rates right now, and then there's the psychological aspect of people's spending more time at home and realizing that they need more. I just had a client yesterday close on a property. They had to move because they were working from home and needed more space, and they have kids at home. It is a big issue right now with the real estate prices increasing so much and very quickly.

What our organization believes in is that there are opportunities elsewhere across the province. There are small towns. There are big opportunities. In order to get there, we need to good infrastructure, including transportation, as well as quality Internet. Without that, people have limited choice. We believe that the dream of home ownership is still alive and well, and that's it.

There are just the other factors as well. With regard to the construction of new homes, a lot of builders have put their projects on pause in the last year, and that has limited supply. Our biggest challenge here is not enough supply in the market, and that's what we're constantly fighting. There are definitely a lot more buyers out there than there are homes available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, both.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.