Finance Committee on May 21st, 2021

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you so much for that.

Definitely, in a country where we're able to provide $750 billion in liquidity supports for Canada's big banks, we can afford to provide supports for a year or longer. Thank you very much for your response to my question.

I'd like to go to Minister Fox next.

You've laid out very eloquently the case of underfunding in terms of maintenance of harbours. One real challenge that we're experiencing in British Columbia is that of DFO not removing derelict vessels. In many harbour areas, we see vessels that have been abandoned. It has been quite an effort to get the federal department to actually step up and remove those vessels.

Is that a problem in Prince Edward Island? Did you see it as a problem nationally that Fisheries and Oceans isn't stepping up to remove derelict vessels, whether they're abandoned by companies or by individuals?

[Jamie Fox]

That's a very good question. The example I would use would be the old HMCS Cormorant, which was decommissioned from the Canadian navy and then sat derelict in Nova Scotia for many years. When we have a piece of infrastructure like that sitting there and basically rotting away at our wharves and our harbours, it's affecting our ecosystem, our aquaculture and the actual environment around it.

We need to ensure that there are laws, measures in place, to get those derelict vessels out of the water and decommissioned completely so that they are not contaminating our environment, because if we are contaminating our environment, whether it be on the west coast or the east coast, there is an effect on the ecosystem and the fish species.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to go to Mr. Casey now.

Mr. Casey, there has been a lot of discussion about the role of the public sector in the development of vaccines and medication. We have had the National Research Council, of course, and they will be providing more research. Many people talk about Connaught Laboratories, which was publicly owned until it was sold out by a previous government.

Many people want to rebuild the publicly owned infrastructure. When we think of insulin, it's a Canadian invention in the public domain, and every Canadian is proud of that history. What role does the public sector play in preparing us for what is inevitably, sadly, the next pandemic? To what extent do you believe we should be making those investments for publicly owned and publicly mandated research?

[Andrew Casey]

I think that's a really important question. Let's hope there is not another pandemic, but I think it would be foolish not to prepare for it. I think the government is recognizing that and putting some different investments there.

The insulin example is a good one, reflecting back to my opening comments, in that the 100th anniversary of the discovery of insulin is now being celebrated. It is now the bedrock of a company called Novo Nordisk, which is based in Denmark. I would argue that if we do everything correctly here in Canada, whatever today's insulin is should be the “Canadadisk” or whatever. We should have that anchor company. That should be a large multinational company that's based here. I think we need to do that right.

The investments in some of the public programs, like the NRC's industrial research assistance program, or IRAP, are absolutely critical to a lot of the early-stage companies. Most of our early-stage companies point to IRAP, SR&ED.... All of those sorts of investments through programming are absolutely critical to their early-stage development. A number of companies today would point back to their history and say that this was critical in their development.

I think the one important thing to remember though, in terms of investing for facilities going forward for a future pandemic, is that in between crises they have to be active. You cannot mothball them, put paper on the windows. plastic on the doors, turn the lights out and then only come back for the next crisis. You have to think of it like an Olympic athlete. They don't sit on the couch drinking beer and eating chips in between the Olympics. They train. You have to do the same thing with our infrastructure.

If we're going to invest in infrastructure, it needs to be commercial. It can support the ecosystem. It can support research and development, early-stage companies, and be commercial at the same time. When the next crisis comes, it's up to code, it has the right people in the facility and it's ready to go. I think that's an absolutely critical part of what we're going do if we're going to develop biomanufacturing capacity in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to a five-minute round with Mr. Falk, followed by Mr. Fraser.

Ted.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here and for their testimony this morning.

Ms. MacNaughton, I, too, want to extend my sympathies to you on the passing of your husband, David, and for the pain and anxiety that you had to endure.

Yesterday at committee, the Canadian Cancer Society was here. They told us that just from smoking, 48,000 die from cancer annually. We know there are many other types of cancer, as in David's case, which was esophagus cancer. You should note that your testimony today is very valuable. You are advocating for tens of thousands of people who find themselves in a similar situation to you and David. Your testimony is important and I want to thank you for it. It's not being lost on this committee.

Thank you for being here.

Minister Fox, it's also very nice to have you here this morning. I'll just throw open a question that you could comment on.

When you look at this budget implementation act that we're studying here today, does it meet the immediate and urgent needs of P.E.I. for the fisheries, from your perspective?

[Jamie Fox]

It's a start, Ted. It's a start to recognize that we need more in DFO when it comes to fisheries.

I can take you to various harbours across Prince Edward Island. If you were to give me $15 million today based on that $300 million, I could use that $15 million basically overnight on harbours that need to be repaired immediately, like Rustico, for example. It wouldn't even address the issue in Malpeque and the immediate need for a long-term solution for that harboured wharf.

It's a good start, but we need to look at a long-term infrastructure plan as it pertains to wharves and harbours across Atlantic Canada. I would even add in British Columbia.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

How about protecting and growing your fishing inventory, your raw goods, so to speak?

[Jamie Fox]

We work very closely with the AFF funding. I've had a conversation with Minister Jordan on that. I suggested to her last year that I would rather see us start the AFF funding phase two sooner than later. We only have two years left on AFF, so we need to recognize that.

In P.E.I., our industry is growing when it comes to lobster and aquaculture. There is room to grow. We must make sure we have the supports in there to help these industries grow as the demand increases with the need for protein.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Casey, I'd like to ask you a few questions as well.

Your association has over 200 members. Are most, or all, of the pharmaceuticals part of your association?

[Andrew Casey]

Are you talking about the large multinational companies?

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's correct.

[Andrew Casey]

Yes, most of them are.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You indicated earlier in your testimony that the industry here in Canada has capacity and had capacity to meet demands that were there to produce vaccines, with the exception of the mRNA technology. You said we did not have that capacity.

Was your association approached by the government for help?

[Andrew Casey]

Yes, in the sense that.... I think what the government did was really smart.

In the early days, if you recall, as I said in my opening remarks, it was seen to be that vaccines would be three to five years away based on the Ebola experience. We sort of knew that was going to be the most optimistic outlook. The more realistic possibility was therapeutics that would alleviate the symptoms and stop people from dying, so a lot of interest was in that area.

I think what the government did was really smart, which was set up two task forces. One was for vaccines and one for therapeutics. They tapped into our industry for advice. There were others from around academics and the medical community as well, but a number of key people from our community were on those task forces to help advise the government in terms of making those decisions.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have one follow-up question, and then I think I'm going to be out of time.

You made a comment as well that the two technologies, mRNA and protein technologies, are not interchangeable. There's been some discussion about taking one vaccine from one technology and then taking a follow-up vaccine from a different technology.

Can you comment briefly on that? You said that they were not compatible, not interchangeable. Did I misunderstand something?

[Andrew Casey]

That's from a manufacturing standpoint. It would be like champagne and 7 Up being clear liquids that are bubbly. You put them in bottles and you drink them out of glasses. That's where the similarity ends. You cannot ask Moët to make 7 Up, and you can't ask 7 Up to make Moët. The manufacturing technology is completely different.

As for the administration of the vaccines, I will not answer that question. That I will leave to the experts, Health Canada and the physicians who provide that advice. I cannot provide that.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Okay. I thought maybe you would know that.

[Andrew Casey]

I know it just in manufacturing.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You're welcome.

We'll turn to Mr. Fraser, who will be followed by Mr. Ste-Marie.

Go ahead, Sean.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks so much, Chair.

My first question will be for Ms. MacNaughton.

Kathy, it's wonderful to see you here. Thank you so much for giving your heart-wrenching testimony. It serves as a reminder that there's a human impact behind all the policies that we get to debate in Parliament, and I think we would all do well to remember your testimony when we think about various issues that come across our plate in our day-to-day work.

One of the things that I think is important.... Look, you've told your story better than I ever could, and I thank you for letting me be part of it. I think you were very generous in your comments, but to the extent any credit is owed here, it's squarely on you. One of the things I've been blown away with from the time that I met you was your persistence on this issue and the fact that you described yourself as an ordinary woman from Westville who has helped make this change.

For those who might be tuning in today, Kathy showed up with a shirt that read, “Ask me about David's Cause” at an event we hosted when the Prime Minister was visiting. When she heard that Minister Duclos, who was previously responsible for the EI file, was coming to the town of Antigonish, she drove down the highway so she could get a chance to make her case there. She met with our former colleague, Mark Eyking, who's been alive to this issue for a number of years and, more recently, she connected with the Canadian Cancer Society, which was working simultaneously on this issue and started using the language of David's Cause in their communications.

Kathy, this is a remarkable example of an individual launching an advocacy campaign that really caught on, and I think you can take some faith from my opposition colleagues today that there is cross-partisan support for this initiative, which is absolutely terrific.

Can you share a message with Canadians who might be tuned in about the importance of advocating for a cause you believe in, though you may just be an ordinary woman from Westville?

[Kathy MacNaughton]

This cause was very dear to me. To watch David suffer physically and mentally over the financing.... I just want to tell every Canadian that, if you believe in yourself and you believe in your cause, you can move mountains. I'm proof of it. I moved a mountain, and so many people are going to benefit from this. My David's story was part of this that made this change, and you just have to keep fighting until somebody hears you.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I can tell you that thousands upon thousands of people have heard you. I had the chance to take part in a debate, which I believe also had cross-partisan support, in the last Parliament on this issue. When I shared a video that referred to your story, I got messages from hundreds of people across Canada who said, “I thought you were talking about my family, and I want you to pass on my gratitude to Kathy for helping make this change a reality.” You've done a heck of a lot of good, and I look forward to seeing this extension be part of Canadian law.

My next question is for Mr. Casey.

You described, very interestingly, a hotel-type analogy of placing a chocolate on a pillow. There's something fascinating that I'm hearing across different sectors more recently. Despite the immense challenges that COVID has put on our economy, there are still significant sectors that are worried about labour shortages. There are some that have been hammered hard, but particularly when you're looking for very specific talent, it can be hard to come by.

In your sector, I wonder if you have advice for us. When it comes to attracting talent to a province such as Nova Scotia or a country such as Canada, what conditions do we need to create for the world's brightest minds to choose our communities as a place to live and work?

[Andrew Casey]

It's really important, just as important as investment. The talent piece is absolutely critical. We have to be competitive, because talent, as I said earlier, is also very mobile. It's moving around.

The problem we have is unlike mining, oil and gas, and forest products, which also have to attract talent and investment. If they don't do so, you can't take a mine, pack it up and move it somewhere else.

Our industry, essentially, is just good ideas. They're on computers or laptops, and if we don't attract the investment and the talent to Canada, the good idea will go elsewhere. It will be commercialized elsewhere and all the economic benefits that come from that commercialization will benefit wherever they go. Thus, we have to be as competitive as possible.

Right now it doesn't seem like it's an acute problem in terms of attracting talent. We have a fantastic pool coming out of our universities and colleges. It seems that the companies are able to fulfill their roles. If you look at Zymeworks, AbCellera and Repare, they're all growing in leaps and bounds and they seem to be able to find the people.

I do think, though, as we get bigger and as the economy opens up and the talent starts to flow again, that's when we'll have to get concerned and make sure that we're as attractive as possible.

I'm working with a number of our companies that are really growing quite quickly, to identify the areas we can improve, such as immigration policy, recognizing that usually when you're attracting one person from another country, they have a spouse who is equally skilled and talented, and you have to bring both. How can we facilitate that? Are there tax incentives or breaks that we can provide? There are all sorts of different options. We have to look at other jurisdictions to understand what they're doing, and maybe stay as competitive as possible with those jurisdictions and mimic what they're doing.