Finance Committee on Nov. 5th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We'll go back to Ms. Khalid—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

—and let her start—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

—and Ms. Jansen wasn't waving her fist. It was just her hand.

Ms. Dzerowicz, go ahead.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Do we have quorum? I see that there are some Conservatives missing and Mr. Julian is missing. Perhaps we don't have quorum anymore.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We do have quorum.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I'm sorry. It was just in case.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, thank you.

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Chair. I do appreciate your proactivity and your diligence in ensuring that members all have their say and are well respected with their perspectives here in this committee.

As I was saying, the point that was being raised that I was trying to lend to this debate is an outside perspective of what the Canadians we serve as members of Parliament see and what they interpret when they see all of these amendments, subamendments, subamendments to the subamendments, and all of this questioning around the integrity of the public service, the integrity of elected officials, regardless of what side of the aisle they're on.

I was giving my personal anecdotes as to what Canadians see, what my constituents see, the feedback that they've been providing me over the past number of months, as well as the issues they've been telling me that they're faced with on a daily basis as they deal with this pandemic.

There have been a number of organizations that have reached out to me, to my constituency office, to my Hill office, to ask if they could participate in the pre-budget consultations. I know how important it is that we hear from Canadians to really form that policy and to really provide that assistance and that help to Canadians as we spend so much time travelling across the country and doing that hard work that we're elected to do.

I'll hit on one more phone call that I had quite recently. It was from a gentleman who had just at the beginning of this pandemic lost his job, and he was able to get the CERB to be able to keep the lights on in his home. As we were having a discussion last week about his job situation and his intrigue with the new CRB and when that was going to be put forward, he again asked me, from that public perspective, what is going on in the House. I again tried to explain to him, and he used a very interesting phrase that I questioned him on.

He said, “It looks like, Ms. Khalid, you've been CoNDP'd,” and I said, “What's a CoNDP?” He said, “Well, it looks like the House has been taken hostage, dealing with and just falling into completely irrelevant matters, into amendments and subamendments and all of this extra language that just does not impact Canadians at all.” I told him that using a term like CoNDP is probably not the best way—and if Mr. Chair had been there on that call, he would probably have told him it was unparliamentary.

However, it's again to the point that we need to ensure that whatever we're doing as parliamentarians, we're doing with integrity and we're doing it with a commitment and a focus to support Canadians in this really important time. They have been telling us consistently that now is the time that they need that help and that support.

I will leave it there, Mr. Chair. I see that you've unmuted yourself. Perhaps it is to talk about something?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I was going to ask you to tie this into the subamendment to the amendment, if you could.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Absolutely. As I said, I have been trying to give that outside perspective on what Canadians are seeing when they see all of these debates. To them, in layman's language, they just do not understand why we're spending so much government time and resources, when what they really want and what they elected us to do is to provide support to them during this pandemic during the toughest time in our country in our history.

I will leave my remarks there, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much again for your indulgence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Mr. McLeod, who is followed by Mr. Fragiskatos and then Mr. Kelly.

Go ahead, Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's certainly an honour for me to sit here to serve on the finance committee. I have been doing exactly that for the last three years. I'm trying to listen very patiently to everything that's being said.

I have been around for a long time on this committee. I'm second only to you in terms of longevity and tied with Mr. Poilievre. Over the last three years, we've certainly all worked really hard to speak freely and allow people to speak freely, although it has been a little bit challenging sometimes.

Over the last couple of years, our committee has done some very good and important work that we can be proud of, from our review of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act to our hearings on multiple budget implementation acts, our meetings earlier this year on our government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the work and the efforts we made to deal with the WE Charity issue. A lot of information was requested and received that I don't think we really did justice to by not getting together and putting all the documents on the table to go through as a committee.

I come from a different style of governance. The Northwest Territories practices a consensus government. The basis of a consensus government is good communication. It includes trust and also includes respect. We also go to great lengths to make sure that people don't attack staff, public servants or other people who are not present to defend themselves. It really is troubling to hear somebody say that the clerk's bonus depends on this Prime Minister. It's almost implying that the clerk would be dishonest and would do it for money. That's a very offensive comment in my view.

Amongst our most significant work is the committee's pre-budget consultation report, which is required by the Standing Orders, and this upcoming study would be my fourth with the committee. I found every one of these studies to be very valuable to my work as a member of Parliament, and I believe it's the same for all members I have served with. It allows us to hear from many witnesses, from coast to coast to coast, and it brings many requests for the government's next budget, and this year is no different. These recommendations would be brought forward to several dozen final recommendations for consideration by the government.

Not only do we hear from groups and advocates that we deal with regularly in our constituencies, but it allows organizations whose members we may not otherwise hear from in our regular day-to-day work to address us.

I'm one of three members who represent the northern territories, and I'm one of 10 indigenous MPs. I always try to make it a priority to have northern and indigenous voices come before our committee during consultations. The Standing Committee on Finance has been able to hear from many of these voices during our in-person Ottawa meetings and our committee tours, which, because of COVID, we will not be able to do.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Mr. Kelly, on a point of order.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I sincerely apologize to Michael McLeod for the interruption, but I want to ask the clerk to clarify. If we go past 6 p.m., will that interfere with a—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

It's a very valid point, Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Maybe the clerk could tell us what—

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I was interrupting Mr. McLeod due to capacity problems on the Hill. The heritage committee can't meet if we continue to operate, so the meeting is suspended.

[The meeting was suspended at 6 p.m., Thursday, November 5. ]

[The meeting resumed at 4:02 p.m., Tuesday, November 17. ]

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, we'll try this one more time.

We shall call the meeting to order. We're now resuming meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the motion adopted by the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting virtually in a hybrid format.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference, and the proceedings will be televised and made available on the House of Commons website.

We're meeting with just committee members, both here in room 025 and virtually across the country. I think that all the members know the rules by now, so I don't think I need to go through them.

We're starting where we left off.

I have first on my list, Mr. Peter Fragiskatos, but Mr. Poilievre you had...?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Yes, I put my hand up before everyone else and I'd like to have the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, you can do that. I don't have a screen with the hands on it here.

Mr. Fragiskatos has informed me that he wants to speak, but your hand is showing up on the deck here, Mr. Poilievre. You're coming through bigger than in life right in front of me, so go ahead.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I don't even know how that's possible, but thank you very much for saying so.

It's great to be with you today, Mr. Chair.

As you may have heard, there's been some debate in the public realm about the proceedings we've had over the last several weeks. I think we all agree that it's time to get moving on our work and put an end to this Liberal filibuster. As a result, I am prepared to move a motion that would achieve that goal. This motion would effectively set aside for the time being my point of privilege until it can be addressed, and hopefully, the breach of privilege that precipitated it removed.

In a manner consistent with the words that members of the government have spoken, I have a motion that I think should garner unanimous consent here today. I think my assistant Craig has sent this over to you and to your clerk so that it can be distributed to all members. It is translated in both official languages and it is in order, because it, of course, is on the subject at hand.

It reads as follows:

That the committee temporarily set aside the motion relating to the point of privilege put forward by the Member for Carleton on October 8, 2020, and the subsequent subamendments moved by the Member for Calgary Rocky Ridge and the Member for Kingston and the Islands, and that the committee adopt all evidence heard in the First Session of the 43rd Parliament during the committee’s study on "Government Spending, WE and the Canada Student Service Grant"; and that the committee order that by November 20, 2020, the government provide the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel with all documents originally requested in the July 7, 2020 motion moved by the Member for New Westminster-Burnaby, without any redaction, omission or exclusion except as would be justified in sections and subsections 69(1) through 69(3)(b)(ii) of the Access to Information Act, and that the Clerk of the Privy Council and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner appear no later than November 25, 2020 to discuss "cabinet confidence" exclusions to public disclosures, and that the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel testify before the committee regarding documents received from the government pursuant to this motion.

I believe my assistant Craig has shared that with all members of the committee. I think this should pass without any controversy, given that it's consistent with what government members have been stating publicly for the last week.

We have a tweet from Mr. Rodriguez saying that he wants to end the Liberal filibuster and he is prepared to release everything except for cabinet confidences. Hopefully, we can dispense with that and then quickly get on to discussing committee business.

I'll conclude by saying that this has been five weeks of delays. Government members have now spoken for 28 hours over five weeks, some 171,000 words. This is at a time when our economy is effectively in a depression. We are the finance committee. It is our job to respond to that.

The Conservatives have been trying to get us back onto financial issues so we can help Canadians protect their lives and livelihoods. Given that the Liberals have agreed to change course and release documents that they previously had redacted and guarded jealously, and given that they have said the only objection they have now is to the release of cabinet confidences, then I think we have a consensus to move forward and release all other documents that are not cabinet confidence, while we talk to the Privy Council clerk to find out his rationale in defining what he considers to be a cabinet confidence for the purposes of the July 7 motion.

I think we have a solution. After we pass this, Chair, I'm hoping we can take a few moments to get on to the agenda of the committee.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

We haven't received a copy of it yet, or the clerk hasn't, so we certainly would have to receive a copy of it before we go to debate. We have a problem procedurally as well. We can't take another motion when one motion is on the floor, so technically we'd have to adjourn debate on the previous motion we were debating in order to get to this one.

There are a couple of problems. One—