Evidence of meeting #6 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Mario Dion  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number six of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, November 19, the committee is meeting for its study on government spending, WE Charity and the Canada student service grant.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23. The proceedings will be made available by the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the website will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting.... I would normally outline a number of rules, but I think the committee today knows the rules. Also, I'm sure the Clerk of the Privy Council knows the rules.

We will start with our first witness. I'd like to welcome, from the Privy Council Office, Ian Shugart, the Clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet. Mr. Shugart, I'm not sure if you have an opening statement. If you do, we'll allow you to make that. Then we'll go to questions.

First up on the questions list, just for the committee's information, is Mr. Poilievre, followed by Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Fortin and Mr. Julian.

Mr. Shugart, the floor is yours.

4:05 p.m.

Ian Shugart Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Thank you very much, Chair. I am glad to be here again.

The last time we went straight into questions, but given the subject matter, I do have a statement to begin with, which I hope will be helpful. It has been provided to the committee in the two official languages.

I was asked to discuss generally the cabinet confidence exclusions to public disclosure. I intend to lay out the fundamental principles underlying cabinet confidentiality.

As you know, democracies similar to ours have long recognized the need to safeguard the confidentiality of what is said at cabinet and what comes before cabinet, and the documents prepared for those discussions. The reasons are clear. The process of governance in a cabinet-style democracy works best when cabinet members charged with government policy and decision-making are free to express themselves around the cabinet table unreservedly, free to discuss all aspects of the problems that come before them, and to express all manner of views. Confidentiality ensures candour in cabinet discussions and full and frank exchange.

Deliberations among ministers of the Crown and the documents that reflect the content of those deliberations are protected by the constitutional convention of cabinet confidentiality. It performs a vital role in our cabinet-style democratic system of responsible government. In a system of responsible government, cabinet is openly and collectively accountable to Parliament for the decisions it makes during the time it governs.

If ministers are to make decisions collectively, the privacy of their opinions and views in developing government policy must be protected. Otherwise, the collective responsibility of ministers to Parliament, which is essential to cabinet government, would be difficult to maintain.

Along with other constitutional conventions, cabinet confidentiality also serves to uphold the constitutional principle of the separation of powers between the three branches of the state. In doing so, it protects the integrity of our constitutional structure.

Canadian constitutional law has long acknowledged that sovereign power in this country is divided not only between Parliament and the provincial legislatures, but also among the executive, legislative and judicial branches of the state. Although there are limited areas of overlap, each branch plays a fundamentally distinct role.

In a recent unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of Canada reasserted that each branch must be able to perform its constitutionally assigned functions without undue interference by the others. Several doctrines work to prevent undue interference by one branch into another. This includes the secrecy afforded to judicial deliberations and the recognition of the privileges, powers and immunities enjoyed by the Senate, the House of Commons and the legislative assemblies.

In August the Supreme Court reaffirmed that the executive, too, benefits from a degree of protection against undue interference. The court specified that the deliberations among ministers of the Crown, and the records supporting and reflecting those deliberations, are protected by the constitutional convention of cabinet solidarity and confidentiality.

Of course, the constitutional convention protecting the confidentiality of cabinet deliberations does not exist just for the cabinet of the day. It exists for all cabinets: for those that came before it, and for those cabinets that will come after it. The constitutional convention and the protection it affords is for the benefit of our system of democratic governance, both the concept of cabinet solidarity in responsible government and the ability of the executive branch to do its job.

Recognizing this importance, Parliament resolved that access to cabinet confidences is extraordinary. Parliament chose to exclude cabinet confidences from a right of access under the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act. It did not grant to its agents of Parliament a statutory right of access to cabinet confidences; nor, as a matter of federal law, did Parliament allow our courts access to cabinet confidences.

The committee's July 7 motion stipulated that cabinet confidences were to be excluded from the production of documents. This is in keeping with the House of Commons' long-standing practice of respecting the confidentiality of cabinet decision-making. The former Speaker of the House of Commons, the Honourable Roland Michener, said in November 1957:

...the decision of the government is one and indivisible. Inquiry into how it is arrived at and particularly inquiry into the cabinet process is not permitted in the house.

It is also the way the Supreme Court understands the practice of the House of Commons, as noted in the fundamental decision of Babcock.

The Prime Minister and members of cabinet appeared before committees of the House to provide answers to questions about their decisions on the Canada student service grant. The Prime Minister and cabinet chose to make public their confidences on the CSSG because of the questions raised about the delivery of the program. This is a recognized exception in law to maintaining cabinet confidentiality.

As the Clerk of the Privy Council and custodian of cabinet confidences, I directed that a principled approach be taken to the treatment of cabinet confidences in this case, to ensure a non-selective application of the protection of cabinet confidentiality. As a result, and in keeping with the public disclosures made by members of cabinet, considerable information on the grant, which otherwise would have constituted cabinet confidences, was provided to the committee.

This was one case, Mr. Chair, in the context that I have attempted to lay out, of the doctrine of cabinet confidences. I hope this is useful to the members of the committee.

Thank you very much.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Shugart.

We will go to six-minute rounds for the first four questioners.

Mr. Poilievre, the floor is yours.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Thank you, Mr. Shugart, for your appearance and for your service to Canada.

Question one is, can the Prime Minister of Canada fire you?

4:10 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Indeed he can.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Right, so you do report to him and you serve him.

How many pages of disclosures in the WE controversy have you determined to withhold or redact under the pretext of cabinet confidence?

4:10 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I may not have all of the facts at my fingertips, Mr. Chair, because I understood that the purpose of this afternoon's session was the discussion of cabinet confidences generally speaking. Our internal rough estimate, however, is that less than 2.5% of all of the information provided to the committee was redacted on the basis of relevance, and that about 1% was redacted because of cabinet confidentiality.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

That is not consistent with the numbers we have, which show that roughly half of the total redactions were justified under subsection 69(1) and the other subsections of section 69 that relate to cabinet confidence.

Do you have an exact number of documents that were either withheld or redacted, partially or in their entirety, under the pretext of cabinet confidence? I'm just looking for a number here.

4:10 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

No, I don't have a number today. I assume that will be clear in the law clerk's examination of the documents we're providing.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Well, he can't possibly look at those documents, because they remain redacted or withheld. We were told that you would be the one to come before us to provide us that information.

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Well, as I said, Chair, I had made that offer. This is the information that my officials have provided to me, based on our analysis, but I'm here to discuss cabinet confidence generally, and—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

That's what I'm asking about, and so far you have not told us the number of redactions or withholdings you did under that section of the act.

Can you confirm that every single document you redacted or withheld under the pretext of cabinet secrets actually appeared at a cabinet meeting?

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I presume that they would because they would be either records of decisions or documents that would have been available in the cabinet process.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

All of those documents were there, physically in the cabinet room when the cabinet met.

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

I presume so, Chair, but I won't make a categorical statement to that effect.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

You presume so. We've been told by Liberal members that you're the one who decided to withhold or redact them, so it wouldn't be a presumption. You would know if it is actually true that you made the decision to withhold or redact these documents.

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

It's a separate question. The question was whether I could affirm that all the documents were present, physically, in the cabinet room.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Okay.

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

That, I suspect, is a very precise question with a very precise meaning and I will not declare it emphatically.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

We don't know if they were actually at a cabinet meeting. They are cabinet secrets, but we don't know if they were actually in the cabinet meeting.

How many of them were memoranda to cabinet?

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

Chair, I'm not in a position today to describe that, for the reason I've mentioned.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

How many were discussion papers for the purposes of the cabinet decision-making?

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

The same answer applies, Chair.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

How many were actual agendas of cabinet meetings or records of deliberations?

4:15 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Ian Shugart

It's the same answer, Chair. I'm not going to quantify that. They would all have been of those types and categories of documents.